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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students (Read 623 times)
ahhell
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #10 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 4:31pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 2:59pm:
It's not relevant. It's obvious that some regulation by government is necessary. The problem is, you haven't the mental capacity to understand just how much.
Its relevant, what free market healtcare system has failed?  Germany has among the freest markets in healthcare and its generally regarded as good.  The US does not, its heavily regulated.  The government has an effective monopoly on education.  The Dover case had nothing to do with markets, its absurd to try and shoehorn your ideology into that case.
Don_G wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 2:59pm:
When are you going to learn not to argue with me?
It is rather pointless.
  
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Crystallas
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #11 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 5:20pm
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Well the US has heavily socialized healthcare now, anyone that thinks it's anywhere close to free market obviously has significant brain damage(likely due to a government education system). So why on earth would we believe our heavily socialized education system is any better?

The cycle of indoctrination continues!

Make no mistake, the best education is non-compulsory. Unschooling and diversity in methodology  is the future, we just need all the special interest stronghold involved in the education industry to get defeated. It's no mistake that the same people who constantly advocate for rail transport are also one-track minded LOL
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #12 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:06pm
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From Don_G:

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Special needs schools seem to be more likely the answer.
Unfortunately, in the states that is all but impossible.  Public school are bound by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act which is all about inclusiveness and not at all about actual learning.

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But I can see the value in the US doing an experiment on free market schooling. I think it would likely turn out to be as much as a failure as free market health care.
We have free market schooling in the U.S.  Always have.  No experiment needed.  Free market education students consistently outscore and outperform students from government schools in every venue except Football (meaning American Football, of course).  The only problem is that since around the time of the New Deal, the government as taken such large chunks of our paychecks to fund government schooling that only the Bill Clintons and Barack Obamas of the nation can afford the free market education that prepared Chelsea to earn so much money at such a young age in the free market.


Quote:
US schooling is already failing too much because it seems to allow the free market to interfere in public schooling.

An instance to show that is true was the Dover school board's law suit pushing for 'Intelligent Design' to be taught in the schools. Goverment came to the rescue just in time to shoot that bullshit down. Are you aware of what happened?

It was a close call! But it didn't put an end to the private sector trying to interfere in the education system. School texts that are used throughout the US come from Texas and that's the bastion of truth alteration.
How is a pressure group filing a lawsuit in a government court to force government schools to do something interference by the "free market?"

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If you claim to be a libertarian then we should talk about the subject in detail. As libertarians we would find some agreement. And as an American, you would find it reassuring on the need for the separation of church and state!
Ok.  Start talking and be specific about how the issue of what theories to teach in schools relates to the free market?
  
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merkelstan
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #13 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:14pm
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ahhell wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 4:31pm:
Germany has among the freest markets in healthcare and its generally regarded as good. 


Puh. Well I imagine there is worse.  But the over-regulation of care is incredible.  My medical pals could (should) write a book about it.

  
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Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #14 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:51pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:06pm:
From Don_G:

Unfortunately, in the states that is all but impossible.  Public school are bound by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act which is all about inclusiveness and not at all about actual learning.

We have free market schooling in the U.S.  Always have.  No experiment needed.  Free market education students consistently outscore and outperform students from government schools in every venue except Football (meaning American Football, of course).  The only problem is that since around the time of the New Deal, the government as taken such large chunks of our paychecks to fund government schooling that only the Bill Clintons and Barack Obamas of the nation can afford the free market education that prepared Chelsea to earn so much money at such a young age in the free market.


How is a pressure group filing a lawsuit in a government court to force government schools to do something interference by the "free market?"

Ok.  Start talking and be specific about how the issue of what theories to teach in schools relates to the free market?


Well, I think the time has come to outlaw religious teaching in schools. But that doesn't matter what I think because your constitution already handles that.

government upholds the principles of the free market. There are laws on the books to keep it free. Religion can't interfere in the free market by demanding money for religious teaching.

I'm not really sure if high price private school students 'always' outscore the public schools? And I'm not sure it's even a fair comparison. Money probably buys a better education in most cases. It's too bad everybody will never be wealthy enough to afford the best!

However, I think it's quite possible that public schools in some other countries outperform all of your schools on the average. That's just a guess so maybe you could google it for me?
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #15 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:06pm
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Well, I think the time has come to outlaw religious teaching in schools. But that doesn't matter what I think because your constitution already handles that.
Gosh no.  That's nowhere in our constitution.  I'll link you to a copy so you can read for yourself.  Or, dotard that I am becoming, if you can tell me the article and line that outlaws religious teaching in schools, I'll be glad to look at it.

We have Catholic school, Episcopal schools, Jewish school, most churches have Sunday school.  Government schools these days primarily concentrate on teaching about Islam during social studies lessons about great religions but other religion are mentioned in passing also.

How did you get the idea that our constitution outlaws religious teaching in schools?

Quote:
government upholds the principles of the free market. There are laws on the books to keep it free. Religion can't interfere in the free market by demanding money for religious teaching.
You mean in government schools?  As I said, they talk almost incessantly about the beauty of Islam. 


Quote:
I'm not really sure if high price private school students 'always' outscore the public schools?
They do indeed.

Quote:
And I'm not sure it's even a fair comparison. Money probably buys a better education in most cases.
The average per-student, per-year cost for public schools ranges from $12,000 to $27,000.  Average private school tuition is $9,975 per year.  So private school are a real bargain and get far better results.

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It's too bad everybody will never be wealthy enough to afford the best!
You mean because the government will never stop taking so much of their earnings in taxes?

Quote:
However, I think it's quite possible that public schools in some other countries outperform all of your schools on the average. That's just a guess so maybe you could google it for me?
I'm sure the do.  Our public schools are a scandal.  They are hopelessly bogged down in political pull peddling and have lost all sight of educating children.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #16 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:25pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
Gosh no.  That's nowhere in our constitution.  I'll link you to a copy so you can read for yourself.  Or, dotard that I am becoming, if you can tell me the article and line that outlaws religious teaching in schools, I'll be glad to look at it.

We have Catholic school, Episcopal schools, Jewish school, most churches have Sunday school.  Government schools these days primarily concentrate on teaching about Islam during social studies lessons about great religions but other religion are mentioned in passing also.

How did you get the idea that our constitution outlaws religious teaching in schools?

You mean in government schools?  As I said, they talk almost incessantly about the beauty of Islam. 


They do indeed.

The average per-student, per-year cost for public schools ranges from $12,000 to $27,000.  Average private school tuition is $9,975 per year.  So private school are a real bargain and get far better results.

You mean because the government will never stop taking so much of their earnings in taxes?

I'm sure the do.  Our public schools are a scandal.  They are hopelessly bogged down in political pull peddling and have lost all sight of educating children.


Sorry, maybe I mistook your constitution for laws that separate church and state.

The 9,975 a year for public school is probably out of the taxpayer's pocket. I'm sure poor families can't afford 30k to send 3 kids to school. It's what I call free stuff. I lean toward a libertarian view of everybody being allowed to send their kids to school and not disqualified because of money problems.

Let's keep this on a level of decency, at least between the two of us. If you want to get into Islam then Jeff's your man.

In your country I think I may be able to find instances of public schools doing better teaching than private schools. Maybe later?

Fwiw, I think there wouldn't be any problem at all finding examples of other countries far exceeding your education standards. 
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #17 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 9:02pm
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Sorry, maybe I mistook your constitution for laws that separate church and state.
There are no such laws.  No more than there are laws separating tattoo parlor from state.  Both tattoo parlors and churches are heavily regulated in our non-libertarian state.  Again, I'll admit I'm wrong about that if you can find an example of a U.S. law separating church from state.
Quote:
The 9,975 a year for public school is probably out of the taxpayer's pocket. I'm sure poor families can't afford 30k to send 3 kids to school. It's what I call free stuff. I lean toward a libertarian view of everybody being allowed to send their kids to school and not disqualified because of money problems.
9,975 per year is for private school.  You said, "Money probably buys a better education in most cases. " which is not true because, as I said, government school is far more costly for far lessor results.  The schools in DC, with a per student spending of more than one and a half times that of the average private school - $25,038 - and the most federal regulation by far, has some of the worst results even among our failing government schools.
Quote:
Let's keep this on a level of decency, at least between the two of us. If you want to get into Islam then Jeff's your man.
I don't know what you have against Islam.  I mention it only to dissuade you of the idea that U.S. schools don't have religious teaching.

Quote:
In your country I think I may be able to find instances of public schools doing better teaching than private schools. Maybe later?
Let me know when you do.

Quote:
Fwiw, I think there wouldn't be any problem at all finding examples of other countries far exceeding your education standards. 
Nor do I.  Our government schools are a scandal.  "My country rules!  Your country SUCKS!" isn't libertarianism.  Again, you may want to visit:
http://area51.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1
  
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Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #18 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 10:49pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 9:02pm:
There are no such laws.  No more than there are laws separating tattoo parlor from state.  Both tattoo parlors and churches are heavily regulated in our non-libertarian state.  Again, I'll admit I'm wrong about that if you can find an example of a U.S. law separating church from state.


I did and it 'is' contained in your constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_State...

Quote:
9,975 per year is for private school.  You said, "Money probably buys a better education in most cases. " which is not true because, as I said, government school is far more costly for far lessor results.  The schools in DC, with a per student spending of more than one and a half times that of the average private school - $25,038 - and the most federal regulation by far, has some of the worst results even among our failing government schools.


Public schools are free. As I suggested, few poor people can afford 30k to send 3 kids to school. I think your misunderstanding is in not accepting that public schools are free because the poor get it for free. It's not free for the wealthy who pay taxes to send your country's children to school. Free stuff!


Quote:
I don't know what you have against Islam.  I mention it only to dissuade you of the idea that U.S. schools don't have religious teaching.


See the Dover school board decision where ID'ers got shot down.


Nor do I.  Our government schools are a scandal.  "My country rules!  Your country SUCKS!" isn't libertarianism.  Again, you may want to visit:
http://area51.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1 [/quote]


I didn't say your country sucks anymore than in telling the truth which you must have interpreted as me saying that.
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #19 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 11:12am
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burnsred wrote yesterday at 9:02pm:
There are no such laws.  No more than there are laws separating tattoo parlor from state.  Both tattoo parlors and churches are heavily regulated in our non-libertarian state.  Again, I'll admit I'm wrong about that if you can find an example of a U.S. law separating church from state.


I did and it 'is' contained in your constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_State....
That's a wikipedia article, not the Constitution.  You can tell by the URL. 

"Separation of Church and state" is an idea espoused by Thomas Jefferson" to express his hope that the government would not regulate religious activities, nor interfere with people's right to worship as they choose.  Sadly, no such law was ever codified so our government heavily regulates our religious activities.  Our government feels very free to breach that supposed wall with things like requiring the Catholic church to pay for birth control and abortions. 

"Separation of church and state" was never meant by any serious person to mean that people with religious beliefs would be excluded from participating in decision making in a democratic republic. 

Quote:
Quote:
9,975 per year is for private school.  You said, "Money probably buys a better education in most cases. " which is not true because, as I said, government school is far more costly for far lessor results.  The schools in DC, with a per student spending of more than one and a half times that of the average private school - $25,038 - and the most federal regulation by far, has some of the worst results even among our failing government schools.


Public schools are free.
No, they cost much more than private schools as I already explained.  They may give the illusion of being free to people who pay little in taxes.

Quote:
As I suggested, few poor people can afford 30k to send 3 kids to school. I think your misunderstanding is in not accepting that public schools are free because the poor get it for free. It's not free for the wealthy who pay taxes to send your country's children to school. Free stuff!
If we weren't being taxed more than half of our earnings, middle-class people could easily afford private school  The wealthy, especially wealthy religious people, would donate generously to private schools for the poor.  It's in the interest of the wealthy to have a broad and equal education system which our government schools fail miserably in providing.


Quote:
Quote:
I don't know what you have against Islam.  I mention it only to dissuade you of the idea that U.S. schools don't have religious teaching.


See the Dover school board decision where ID'ers got shot down.
What does that have to do with public schools spending so much time teaching about one religion?  I thought you would say, "What?!??!?!?!   PUBLIC schools spending class time promoting one religion to the exclusion of others?  That violates separation of church and state!!!!!!!!"

That was the objection to the ID teaching, no?  That you can't teach religion in a public school?  Why the difference?


Quote:
Nor do I.  Our government schools are a scandal.  "My country rules!  Your country SUCKS!" isn't libertarianism.  Again, you may want to visit:
http://area51.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1


I didn't say your country sucks anymore than in telling the truth which you must have interpreted as me saying that.
*rimshot*
  
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