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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students (Read 620 times)
Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #20 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 11:52am
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 11:12am:
That's a wikipedia article, not the Constitution.  You can tell by the URL. 

"Separation of Church and state" is an idea espoused by Thomas Jefferson" to express his hope that the government would not regulate religious activities, nor interfere with people's right to worship as they choose.  Sadly, no such law was ever codified so our government heavily regulates our religious activities.  Our government feels very free to breach that supposed wall with things like requiring the Catholic church to pay for birth control and abortions. 


Did you think I mistook an HP link for your constitrtion?
You have put an interesting twist on the separation of church and state but it seems to be a small minority opinion. I gave you the Dover school board decision as an example of it being a real thing that worked to stop religious superstition from infiltrating into schools.

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"Separation of church and state" was never meant by any serious person to mean that people with religious beliefs would be excluded from participating in decision making in a democratic republic.


Yet it has worked to do just that! Perhaps your view is a minority view of a libertarian. If so then I would say it's only pseudo-libertarianism. 

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No, they cost much more than private schools as I already explained.  They may give the illusion of being free to people who pay little in taxes.


Libertarians oppose paying taxes yet you are claiming some people are paying too little? In any case, the actual amount poor people pay for schooling their children is much less in the public schools. And that's why there is a very big need for them. Responsible capitalists work to make them better, not begrudge their existence. There's always going to be a need for them obviously. The free market isn't going to make private schools free or even affordable.

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If we weren't being taxed more than half of our earnings, middle-class people could easily afford private school  The wealthy, especially wealthy religious people, would donate generously to private schools for the poor.  It's in the interest of the wealthy to have a broad and equal education system which our government schools fail miserably in providing.


Maybe upper middle class could afford private schools. The masses would go without education. Especially wealthy religious people should have demonstrated their willingness to donate billions of dollars to private school education and that would have perhaps eliminated the need for public schools.


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What does that have to do with public schools spending so much time teaching about one religion?  I thought you would say, "What?!??!?!?!   PUBLIC schools spending class time promoting one religion to the exclusion of others?  That violates separation of church and state!!!!!!!!"


No religious superstitions should be taught in public schools. It's offensive to modern thinking and rational people. And it's not compatible with many of the subjects being taught in schools. Sciences especially! Ask me why!

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That was the objection to the ID teaching, no?  That you can't teach religion in a public school?  Why the difference?


*rimshot*


ID was irrational and fringe religious teaching. It was invented to use against science by providing it's own science. Science quickly demolished it as a fraud. That should have been the end of it but some nutcases still persist. Surely you don't support that kind of pseudo-science?

If so then ask me about irreducible complexity, the ID'ers fatal mistake.

the smackdown: https://ncse.com/library-resource/kitzmiller-v-dover-intelligent-design-trial
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #21 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:09pm
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Did you think I mistook an HP link for your constitrtion?
You have put an interesting twist on the separation of church and state but it seems to be a small minority opinion.
Yes, libertarians are a small minority.  A "remnant" as some of the great libertarian writers called it.  Just out of curiosity, who are some of your favorite libertarian thinkers?  What do you agree with them most about?

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I gave you the Dover school board decision as an example of it being a real thing that worked to stop religious superstition from infiltrating into schools.

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"Separation of church and state" was never meant by any serious person to mean that people with religious beliefs would be excluded from participating in decision making in a democratic republic.


Yet it has worked to do just that!
Yes, as we have turned further and further away from our libertarian founders' thinking.

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Perhaps your view is a minority view of a libertarian. If so then I would say it's only pseudo-libertarianism.
How can it be pseudo-libertarian to have a minority view?  Libertarians have been in the minority at least since the New Deal.  The ultimate minority who is most oppressed in the U.S. is the individual.

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No, they cost much more than private schools as I already explained.  They may give the illusion of being free to people who pay little in taxes.


Libertarians oppose paying taxes yet you are claiming some people are paying too little?
I said the fact that they pay so little makes them think what government gives them is free.  The answer is to stop giving them stuff purchased with my money, not to charge them more taxes.

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In any case, the actual amount poor people pay for schooling their children is much less in the public schools. And that's why there is a very big need for them. Responsible capitalists work to make them better, not begrudge their existence. There's always going to be a need for them obviously. The free market isn't going to make private schools free or even affordable.
The free market excels at making things affordable.  Or more properly, people who succeed in the free market almost always do so by making things affordable.

I actually worked at both private and public schools so I may have an unfair advantage over you in this argument.  The private school I worked at was designed to be a "no frills" high school in which students who had been failed by the public schools could have a chance to graduate and not be stigmatized for the failure of the system.  Tuition was $300 per month, for nine and a half months.  That was $2850 for a year, which was less than a third of the average private school and less than one fourth of the average public school. 

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If we weren't being taxed more than half of our earnings, middle-class people could easily afford private school  The wealthy, especially wealthy religious people, would donate generously to private schools for the poor.  It's in the interest of the wealthy to have a broad and equal education system which our government schools fail miserably in providing.


Maybe upper middle class could afford private schools. The masses would go without education.
Maybe in a country with no history of self-reliance.  In the States, people learn to provide for their children in spite of government, not depend on government.

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Especially wealthy religious people should have demonstrated their willingness to donate billions of dollars to private school education and that would have perhaps eliminated the need for public schools.
They're too busy trying not to pay 90% of their earnings in taxes.


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What does that have to do with public schools spending so much time teaching about one religion?  I thought you would say, "What?!??!?!?!   PUBLIC schools spending class time promoting one religion to the exclusion of others?  That violates separation of church and state!!!!!!!!"


No religious superstitions should be taught in public schools. It's offensive to modern thinking and rational people.
Ok, so you would also strongly object to lessons in which children are instructed in the Islamic faith such as this one from our government broadcasting that is taught in our government schools?

https://houstonpbs.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/islam08.socst.world.glob.lppill...

And it's not compatible with many of the subjects being taught in schools. Sciences especially! Ask me why!

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That was the objection to the ID teaching, no?  That you can't teach religion in a public school?  Why the difference?

ID was irrational and fringe religious teaching. It was invented to use against science by providing it's own science. Science quickly demolished it as a fraud. That should have been the end of it
I don't know enough about ID to debate about it.  If I owned a school, I would no doubt select my curriculum in a way that best serves my students so that I keep my clientele.  That's the beauty of the free market.  If ID is as anti-scientific as you claim, surely parents won't send their kids to schools that teach it.
  
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ahhell
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #22 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:11pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 11:52am:
Yet it has worked to do just that! Perhaps your view is a minority view of a libertarian. If so then I would say it's only pseudo-libertarianism. 
I do enjoy how you state the false as though its self-evident truth.  The first amendment does not exclude religious folks from participating in our democracy, nor is it meant to as burns noted.  Dover has no impact on that.

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Libertarians oppose paying taxes yet you are claiming some people are paying too little? In any case, the actual amount poor people pay for schooling their children is much less in the public schools. And that's why there is a very big need for them. Responsible capitalists work to make them better, not begrudge their existence. There's always going to be a need for them obviously. The free market isn't going to make private schools free or even affordable.
For the most part, libertarians only oppose excessive taxes or certain types of taxation, none oppose all taxes.  You will also find a range of opinion regarding public schools. Historically, free markets have provided education for poor people when those poor people exist in cultures that have a high regard for education.  Catholics and Jews in the US long provided schools for poor parishiners.  Usually subsidized by richer patrons.  One of the reasons the Catholics have the most extensive private school system in the US is because public schools insufficient dedication to separation of church and state. 
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Maybe upper middle class could afford private schools. The masses would go without education. Especially wealthy religious people should have demonstrated their willingness to donate billions of dollars to private school education and that would have perhaps eliminated the need for public schools.
They did, religious bigotry is part of the reason that public schools expanded in the US, to reduce the influence of the pope.

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No religious superstitions should be taught in public schools. It's offensive to modern thinking and rational people. And it's not compatible with many of the subjects being taught in schools. Sciences especially! Ask me why!
I tend to agree.
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ID was irrational and fringe religious teaching. It was invented to use against science by providing it's own science. Science quickly demolished it as a fraud. That should have been the end of it but some nutcases still persist. Surely you don't support that kind of pseudo-science?

If so then ask me about irreducible complexity, the ID'ers fatal mistake.

the smackdown: https://ncse.com/library-resource/kitzmiller-v-dover-intelligent-design-trial
I tend to agree but without the vitriol and exaggeration. 

I'd be rather surprised if Burnsred can actually provide examples of Islam being taught in public schools as anything more than, "Roughly a billion people in world are muslims, here are the countries they mostly live in, and here are some things they believe."  Which is entirely appropriate. 

I suspect that for every example of a public school teaching about islam in a way that suggests its promoting Islam, you can find a dozen examples of protestant christianity being taught in a similar way.
  
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ahhell
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #23 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:21pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:09pm:
Maybe in a country with no history of self-reliance.  In the States, people learn to provide for their children in spite of government, not depend on government.

That's a bygone era my friend but I'm jealous of your optimism and naivete.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #24 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:33pm
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ahhell wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:11pm:
I do enjoy how you state the false as though its self-evident truth.  The first amendment does not exclude religious folks from participating in our democracy, nor is it meant to as burns noted.  Dover has no impact on that. [quote]

Dover did what it did. It has nothing to do with religious folks participating in anything. It kept superstiious belief teaching out of the public schools.

[quote]For the most part, libertarians only oppose excessive taxes or certain types of taxation, none oppose all taxes.  You will also find a range of opinion regarding public schools. Historically, free markets have provided education for poor people when those poor people exist in cultures that have a high regard for education.  Catholics and Jews in the US long provided schools for poor parishiners.  Usually subsidized by richer patrons.  One of the reasons the Catholics have the most extensive private school system in the US is because public schools insufficient dedication to separation of church and state. 
They did, religious bigotry is part of the reason that public schools expanded in the US, to reduce the influence of the pope.


You mention separation of church and state. Tell me all about it.

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I tend to agree.


Most people do!
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I tend to agree but without the vitriol and exaggeration.


Which is what? 

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I'd be rather surprised if Burnsred can actually provide examples of Islam being taught in public schools as anything more than, "Roughly a billion people in world are muslims, here are the countries they mostly live in, and here are some things they believe."  Which is entirely appropriate.


I'm not willing to entertain any of his Muslim paranoia. 

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I suspect that for every example of a public school teaching about islam in a way that suggests its promoting Islam, you can find a dozen examples of protestant christianity being taught in a similar way.


No doubt!
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #25 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:47pm
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I'd be rather surprised if Burnsred can actually provide examples of Islam being taught in public schools as anything more than, "Roughly a billion people in world are muslims, here are the countries they mostly live in, and here are some things they believe."  Which is entirely appropriate.
Be surprised then.  Here is a lesson published by our government broadcasting service for use in our government schools:


https://houstonpbs.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/islam08.socst.world.glob.lppill...
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I suspect that for every example of a public school teaching about islam in a way that suggests its promoting Islam, you can find a dozen examples of protestant christianity being taught in a similar way.
Ok, I gave you one, where are the dozens?

Even if you can, dozens of wrongs don't make a right.

  
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #26 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:47pm:
Be surprised then.  Here is a lesson published by our government broadcasting service for use in our government schools:

https://houstonpbs.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/islam08.socst.world.glob.lppill...

That is some scary stuff.  Shocked  No wonder kids are so confused these days. 
  
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Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #27 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 1:05pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:47pm:
Be surprised then.  Here is a lesson published by our government broadcasting service for use in our government schools:


https://houstonpbs.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/islam08.socst.world.glob.lppill...
Ok, I gave you one, where are the dozens?

Even if you can, dozens of wrongs don't make a right.



Muslims are people and I'm not going to get into any conversation that attempts to separate them from the rest of Americans. That would be the definition of racism.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #28 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 1:07pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:58pm:
That is some scary stuff.  Shocked  No wonder kids are so confused these days. 


Americans just need to stop referring to people with labels. It's your country's background that seems to want to cling to racial differences. Or religious superstitious differences.
  
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ahhell
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Re: How Public (Government) Schools Fail to Meet the Needs of Students
Reply #29 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 1:15pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:47pm:
Be surprised then.  Here is a lesson published by our government broadcasting service for use in our government schools:
That seems entirely appropriate to me, why shouldn't Americans students get a basic introduction to the beliefs of a billion people that they we generally don't understand well?  Especially since we are at war with a good portion of those people.  Aside from that, its not actually an example.  Its a suggested curriculum from PBS not a curriculum from a public school. Lesson plans also available on that site.
https://houstonpbs.pbslearningmedia.org/search/?q=christianity&selected_facets=&...
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https://houstonpbs.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/islam08.socst.world.glob.lppill...
Ok, I gave you one, where are the dozens?

Even if you can, dozens of wrongs don't make a right.

I suggested that Don could because I'm lazy, heres two for your none. 

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/11/christianity_fo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USjkHIZtF1o


Sure, two wrongs don't make a right but teaching about a religion is not a wrong.   Indoctrinating into a religion in public schools is. 
  
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