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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Food a Right? (Read 1210 times)
burnsred
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Is Food a Right?
Sep 28th, 2017 at 7:50pm
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It is certainly more vital to existence as a human being than medical care.  Nearly every American supports some form of government payments for health care at least as a last resort for people who don't have the money to buy insurance or pay cash for treatments. 

So wouldn't food be even more so?  Suppose a person states openly that they are perfectly capable of working but that they won't work and no one can make them.  Should the government provide them minimum food to survive, such as oatmeal, beans and rice?

Can a libertarian go along with that for humanitarian reasons even though it requires initiation of force against people who do work in order to take their wealth to buy the beans, oatmeal and rice?
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #1 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 8:17pm
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Of course it's a right. So is medical care. I'm allowed to do anything to my body, drink bleach, inject steroids, or whatever, so as long as I'm not acting as an aggressor to a non-consenting, implied or direct, party. Fraud and theft are aggressions as well, so basically, nobody can stop you or me from eating, unless they violate human rights. Nobody can stop you or I from treating ourselves without violating a human right.

It's when dishonest jerkoffs try to skew their selfish desires and force others to be enslaved into their system as a disguised right, when it is no longer a natural right of a person.

I say anyone who believes a government should force others to provide services, should be the ones providing those services for free.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #2 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 8:34pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 7:50pm:
It is certainly more vital to existence as a human being than medical care.  Nearly every American supports some form of government payments for health care at least as a last resort for people who don't have the money to buy insurance or pay cash for treatments. 

So wouldn't food be even more so?  Suppose a person states openly that they are perfectly capable of working but that they won't work and no one can make them.  Should the government provide them minimum food to survive, such as oatmeal, beans and rice?

Can a libertarian go along with that for humanitarian reasons even though it requires initiation of force against people who do work in order to take their wealth to buy the beans, oatmeal and rice?


That which is right and that which becomes rights, are governed by social responsibility. That will need to be considered by any libertarian attempting to answer.

I'll save my answer until a little later after we've heard whether any of our pseudo-libertarians can get it right.

I'm assuming that you want an answer that could be actually considered as a possible answer for a society in general.

If you don't like the word 'society' then use 'country'.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #3 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 8:39pm
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That which is right and that which becomes rights, are governed by social responsibility. That will need to be considered by any libertarian attempting to answer.

I'll save my answer until a little later after we've heard whether any of our pseudo-libertarians can get it right.
You always save your answers.  I wonder why?

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I'm assuming that you want an answer that could be actually considered as a possible answer for a society in general.

If you don't like the word 'society' then use 'country'.
Why don't you just use what you really mean which is 'government.'

  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #4 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 10:13pm
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From Crystallas:

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I say anyone who believes a government should force others to provide services, should be the ones providing those services for free.
I love that idea in principle. 

But that would leave Don_G with no time for posting.

But at least he would be sacrificing his rights for the greater good, which is the highest form of freedom according to him.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #5 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 10:47pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 8:39pm:
You always save your answers.  I wonder why?


I've never saved my answers. I've been very active trying to help these people understand their social responsibilities. That wasn't fair!

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Why don't you just use what you really mean which is 'government.'



How could that possibly be referring to government?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #6 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 10:52pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 10:13pm:
From Crystallas:

I love that idea in principle. 

But that would leave Don_G with no time for posting.

But at least he would be sacrificing his rights for the greater good, which is the highest form of freedom according to him.



You can't deny the greater good. Libertarians can't dictate to others on rights. Those that think they can were probably never able to play with their friends in their sandboxes when they were children, without hogging all the toys to themselves.

I think you're starting to get insulting and I haven't even answered your questions yet.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #7 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 11:37pm
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Part 1 of my answer: If a country experiences a problem with people who can work but won't work, that country needs to face the problem at it's roots. And fwiw, this is the exact same approach that should be taken with extremely high prison incarceration rates. Both are indications of a broken society. Or broken government. Or a broken people. The way we go about fixing that is a conversation all American should be inviting!

One of the reasons why that is the first step is because millions of American children are involved. That makes the answer elementary for anyone who would even claim to be a decent person. They must be fed, not only rice and grains and high carb cheap food, they must be fed good nutritional meals. The're the nation's future!

Part 2- The adults. Rather than try to impress on these people with cruelty and dictating to them, they need to be convinced to change their ways. It's likely that they feel completely helpless because of the grim situation in the US. They know their government is corrupt and they know their government is only concerned with looking after the 1% or 2%. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by starving them and as a consequence, their children too. A different approach is what is called for.

This is why the sort of pseudo-libertarianism being voiced by the vampires on this board are so wrong. Caring and compassionate libertarianism is the only answer. And they may be surprised to learn, that's the only road forward to prosperity and relief from their horrendous tax burden.

It's an old commie theme: Make the Rich Pay. But it's back and in vogue for all Americans today. That which ails their country is redistribution of the wealth to favour the highest quintiles. The statistics tell that story very clearly and it just gets worse and worse every year!

What are the suggestions of our resident 'libertarians'?

Punish them and starve them and then bulldoze their dead bodies into a mass grave?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #8 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 9:35am
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You can't deny the greater good. Libertarians can't dictate to others on rights. Those that think they can were probably never able to play with their friends in their sandboxes when they were children, without hogging all the toys to themselves.

I think you're starting to get insulting and I haven't even answered your questions yet.
Really?  I'm starting to get insulting?

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Why don't you just use what you really mean which is 'government.'



How could that possibly be referring to government?
Because who else could enforce that greater good y ou speak of?  You are advocating that the government initiate force against anyone who chooses not to pay for someone else's food, correct?  Or do you just want the hungry work refusers to initiate the force themselves and take money or food from the willing workers?
 
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Part 1 of my answer: If a country experiences a problem with people who can work but won't work, that country needs to face the problem at it's roots. And fwiw, this is the exact same approach that should be taken with extremely high prison incarceration rates. Both are indications of a broken society. Or broken government. Or a broken people. The way we go about fixing that is a conversation all American should be inviting!
Sure.  I'll start the conversation off right now:

It's patently obvious that people who refuse to work and end up in prison for stealing do so because they are lazy and dishonest.  The obvious way to fix it is to stop feeding them and let their hunger motivate them to work so their productivity will serve the greater good.

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One of the reasons why that is the first step is because millions of American children are involved. That makes the answer elementary for anyone who would even claim to be a decent person. They must be fed, not only rice and grains and high carb cheap food, they must be fed good nutritional meals. The're the nation's future!
I know that you are a staunch libertarian, but your use of the passive voice sentence construction makes you sound like a liberal because that is how they mask their true meaning.  They say "must be fed" instead of "the government should feed them using money taken at gunpoint."  So you would want to say (for example), "As a staunch libertarian, I oppose the initiation of force.  However, in this one case of hungry children, I support the initiation of force in order to take money from those who earn it in order to feed the children of those who do not because . . ."  Then we can debate whether we agree or disagree on that point.  No productive debate is possible if one side uses deceptive language. 

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Part 2- The adults. Rather than try to impress on these people with cruelty and dictating to them, they need to be convinced to change their ways.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't support being cruel to work refusers or dictatating to them.  If they do not work and no one is forced to feed them, it is their own bodies that will be cruel to them and dictate that they figure out a way to obtain food.

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It's likely that they feel completely helpless because of the grim situation in the US.
Yes, under the previous president, there were a lot of discouraged workers.  But in 2017, the economy has improved greatly.  Just by lifting a few regulations, we have turned the unemployment rate around.

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They know their government is corrupt and they know their government is only concerned with looking after the 1% or 2%.
You've repeated that statement often, but never explained it so I don't really know how to respond.

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There is absolutely nothing to be gained by starving them and as a consequence, their children too. A different approach is what is called for.
I don't advocate starving them.  I would never initiate force to keep them from obtaining food.  But given the option of using my earned money to improve my and my children's lives or giving my earned money to a person who refuses to work I'll choose the former.


Quote:
This is why the sort of pseudo-libertarianism being voiced by the vampires on this board are so wrong. Caring and compassionate libertarianism is the only answer. And they may be surprised to learn, that's the only road forward to prosperity and relief from their horrendous tax burden.
Again, too vague for me to debate.

Quote:
It's an old commie theme: Make the Rich Pay. But it's back and in vogue for all Americans today. That which ails their country is redistribution of the wealth to favour the highest quintiles. The statistics tell that story very clearly and it just gets worse and worse every year!
So you strongly oppose Obama?
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What are the suggestions of our resident 'libertarians'?

Punish them and starve them and then bulldoze their dead bodies into a mass grave?
In the case of a person who refused to work, no intervention is necessary.  There are natural consequences to refusing to earn one's own way.  If the government did not interfere in those natural consequences, the work refusers would quickly reform themselves.

I always wonder why liberals hate humanity so much. You probably don't speak to liberals very much because they would be put off by your libertarian views on almost every issue.  But if you happen to speak to one, ask them why they have so little confidence in people's ability to take care of themselves.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #9 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 11:44am
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Food, health care, and guns are all rights.  Its funny that nobody is demanding that the government provide guns to its citizens. 

  
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