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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Food a Right? (Read 685 times)
Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #10 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 12:20pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 29th, 2017 at 9:35am:
Really?  I'm starting to get insulting?

We'll both work on toning it down.

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Because who else could enforce that greater good y ou speak of?  You are advocating that the government initiate force against anyone who chooses not to pay for someone else's food, correct?  Or do you just want the hungry work refusers to initiate the force themselves and take money or food from the willing workers?


I'm advocating a different approach in your country because the status quo obviously isn't working. The people on this board ares singing it loud and clear, although they are trying to hide it now because of my presence as a foreigner. They're actuallly beginning to defend the bad. The problems your country is experiencing are not being experienced in other modern countries to nearly the same proportions. So I've advocated a more proactive approach and all you can do  is tell me that somebody wants to take all your money.

So no, I'm not advocating the government initiate force to make you pay for food for your fellow Americans. That's already happening and that's what's made you so bitter and angry. I'm advocating an approach that would reduce that need.
 
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It's patently obvious that people who refuse to work and end up in prison for stealing do so because they are lazy and dishonest.  The obvious way to fix it is to stop feeding them and let their hunger motivate them to work so their productivity will serve the greater good.


They're lazy and dishonest alright. You always come to the correct conclusion on the first step. Then your solution just dives right back into the non-solution that hasn't worked and never will work.

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I know that you are a staunch libertarian, but your use of the passive voice sentence construction makes you sound like a liberal because that is how they mask their true meaning.  They say "must be fed" instead of "the government should feed them using money taken at gunpoint."  So you would want to say (for example), "As a staunch libertarian, I oppose the initiation of force.  However, in this one case of hungry children, I support the initiation of force in order to take money from those who earn it in order to feed the children of those who do not because . . ."  Then we can debate whether we agree or disagree on that point.  No productive debate is possible if one side uses deceptive language. 


No. Let me state it correctly for you then. I'm a staunch libertarian who understands that it's a choice between near starvation of children or feeding them good nutritious meals. I know of no libertarian who would stand by and watch children starve to the point of lasting physical harm. A real libertarian would do something at least. Dropping a nickel in their hat being held out on the street won't work anymore. We left that attitude back in Dickensian England's 19th. century.

My debate posture is to use constructive proactive measures to fix your country's problems. Take it from a foreigner whose country doesn't experience the same problem to the same epidemic proportions.

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't support being cruel to work refusers or dictatating to them.  If they do not work and no one is forced to feed them, it is their own bodies that will be cruel to them and dictate that they figure out a way to obtain food.


It's already not working and you're advocating more of the same. That's the Trump approach, which frankly is disgusting!

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Yes, under the previous president, there were a lot of discouraged workers.  But in 2017, the economy has improved greatly.  Just by lifting a few regulations, we have turned the unemployment rate around.


Best of luck but I don't think you're going to draw any of our libertarians over to voting for the Republican party. They've been burnt too many times. And besides, they claim to be libertarians. It's getting a little difficult to accept that you're not a closet Republican on a libertarian forum, but I'll continue to take your word for it at least for now.

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You've repeated that statement often, but never explained it so I don't really know how to respond.


It's simple! It's about widening income inequality. Check out the stats. And the status quo is totally consistent with the Trump agenda.

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I don't advocate starving them.  I would never initiate force to keep them from obtaining food.  But given the option of using my earned money to improve my and my children's lives or giving my earned money to a person who refuses to work I'll choose the former.


I know your ideology so you don't have to keep repeating it. Even though you make it more clear each time. Saving your children's lives is a little bit of unnecessary -con't

  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #11 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 12:26pm
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con't - embellishment.


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So you strongly oppose Obama?
In the case of a person who refused to work, no intervention is necessary.  There are natural consequences to refusing to earn one's own way.  If the government did not interfere in those natural consequences, the work refusers would quickly reform themselves.


I neither oppose nor support Obama for the purpose of this conversation. You've introduced ideas that I'm not familiar with and have not time to explore.

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I always wonder why liberals hate humanity so much. You probably don't speak to liberals very much because they would be put off by your libertarian views on almost every issue.  But if you happen to speak to one, ask them why they have so little confidence in people's ability to take care of themselves.


We claim to be classic liberals/libertarians. My views are quite consistent with a classic liberal responsible approach. You seem to just be stuck in more of the same.

On this forum we're working to find solutions that are possible to work with and will yield results that can fix your country. But you know that already don't you!
  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #12 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 1:19pm
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Because who else could enforce that greater good y ou speak of?  You are advocating that the government initiate force against anyone who chooses not to pay for someone else's food, correct?  Or do you just want the hungry work refusers to initiate the force themselves and take money or food from the willing workers?




So no, I'm not advocating the government initiate force to make you pay for food for your fellow Americans. That's already happening and that's what's made you so bitter and angry. I'm advocating an approach that would reduce that need.
Starting by ending that initiation of force?  Since it has made me so bitter and angry, it stands in the way of a peaceful solution so I would think you would be happy to start with that, correct?

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I'm advocating a different approach in your country because the status quo obviously isn't working.
No, it isn't.  What very specifically is the approach you advocate after we end the use of force to take my money to give it to people who refuse to work?
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No. Let me state it correctly for you then. I'm a staunch libertarian who understands that it's a choice between near starvation of children or feeding them good nutritious meals. I know of no libertarian who would stand by and watch children starve to the point of lasting physical harm. A real libertarian would do something at least. Dropping a nickel in their hat being held out on the street won't work anymore. We left that attitude back in Dickensian England's 19th. century.
So should children be taken from parents who refuse to work to feed them?

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My debate posture is to use constructive proactive measures to fix your country's problems. Take it from a foreigner whose country doesn't experience the same problem to the same epidemic proportions.
Perhaps because you exclude so many foreigners.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't support being cruel to work refusers or dictatating to them.  If they do not work and no one is forced to feed them, it is their own bodies that will be cruel to them and dictate that they figure out a way to obtain food.


It's already not working and you're advocating more of the same. That's the Trump approach, which frankly is disgusting!
"The Trump approach is disgusting" doesn't really ad to an intellectual debate, sir.

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Best of luck but I don't think you're going to draw any of our libertarians over to voting for the Republican party. They've been burnt too many times. And besides, they claim to be libertarians. It's getting a little difficult to accept that you're not a closet Republican on a libertarian forum, but I'll continue to take your word for it at least for now.
I'm asking all libertarians all over the world to come to the U.S. to pull the straight libertarian ticked early and often.  I only mentioned Obama because in spite of your refusal to say so "for purposes of this conversation" I'm sure he's one of your heroes. 

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It's simple! It's about widening income inequality. Check out the stats. And the status quo is totally consistent with the Trump agenda.
What's wrong with income inequality?  If everyone had the same income whether they worked or not, there would be no incentive to work.

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I know your ideology so you don't have to keep repeating it.
My ideology?  I thought you were a libertarian also?

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We claim to be classic liberals/libertarians. My views are quite consistent with a classic liberal responsible approach. You seem to just be stuck in more of the same.
Oh.. So you are a liberal.  I had suspected as much but I'm glad you clarified.  That said, I will reverse myself on my earlier statement that I would not argue liberalism with you.  I will instead point out the differences between liberalism and libertarianism.  Let's start with marijuana laws.  As a libertarian, I say it's no one's business what someone else chooses to smoke.  What say you, liberal person?

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On this forum we're working to find solutions that are possible to work with and will yield results that can fix your country.
Not just for my country but for all countries.  Libertarianism is an international movement whose economic theories were formulated in Austria and whose political theories were formulated in the British colonies on North America.



  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #13 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 1:47pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 29th, 2017 at 1:19pm:
Starting by ending that initiation of force?  Since it has made me so bitter and angry, it stands in the way of a peaceful solution so I would think you would be happy to start with that, correct?


I'm advocating ending it but I've mentioned the only way of ever doing that. Reread what I said so I don't have to repeat it.


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No, it isn't.  What very specifically is the approach you advocate after we end the use of force to take my money to give it to people who refuse to work?
So should children be taken from parents who refuse to work to feed them?

No, I'm  advocating a way for you to start keeping your money. No, children shouldn't be taken from their parents. But more importantly, there should be no need to ever take children from their American parents. Full circle again!

[quote]Perhaps because you exclude so many foreigners.
"The Trump approach is disgusting" doesn't really ad to an intellectual debate, sir.


You've been told the statistics. Per capita Canada is doing a lot better than the US. Do I have to repeat the facts over and over to you?

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I'm asking all libertarians all over the world to come to the U.S. to pull the straight libertarian ticked early and often.  I only mentioned Obama because in spite of your refusal to say so "for purposes of this conversation" I'm sure he's one of your heroes. 


burnsred really! Obama was a US president and possibly one of the best if antiwar is important to us. He never really did get any kind of decent presidential war going! (comparisons)

And of course his ACA was brilliant from a Canadian POV. (see my link on US health care's failures.

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What's wrong with income inequality?  If everyone had the same income whether they worked or not, there would be no incentive to work.


That's the 'pie in the sky libertarian hurdle we're trying to get over. Everybody isn't going to have the same income. (see some stats on increasing income inequality in your country)
In fact, the lowest quintile has been disincentivized into not wanting to work. Not pay close attention: If there was a minimum wage adhered to then those people would have an incentive to work. If they can make as much on the dole then they won't work. And consequently they will have an incentive to steal your money. Simple libertarian logic there burnsred!

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My ideology?  I thought you were a libertarian also?


I think we're quite different libertarians, and we've been over that many times.

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Oh.. So you are a liberal.  I had suspected as much but I'm glad you clarified.  That said, I will reverse myself on my earlier statement that I would not argue liberalism with you.  I will instead point out the differences between liberalism and libertarianism.


Classic liberalism and libertarian are the same. pseudo-libertarianism is not and is just wishful thinking of a pie in the sky coming down to land on your plate. It's likely not going to ever happen burnsred.

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  Let's start with marijuana laws.  As a libertarian, I say it's no one's business what someone else chooses to smoke.  What say you, liberal person?


Same, with a few reservations.

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Not just for my country but for all countries.  Libertarianism is an international movement whose economic theories were formulated in Austria and whose political theories were formulated in the British colonies on North America.


And which have been adulterated by ignorant people like skychief. And sadly, he's representative of this forum so far.

He doesn't think libertarianism is ever going to be possible for a country. We do but we recognize certain limitations that are important because we can't demand rights and privileges that fly in the face of the rights and privileges of the majority.

Or rather, you can if you like but you'll be blowing smoke up a dead dog's ass. That dog is dead.

And now, shall we begin?


https://thinkmarkets.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/libertarianism-and-classical-liber...



  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #14 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 5:21pm
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Starting by ending that initiation of force?  Since it has made me so bitter and angry, it stands in the way of a peaceful solution so I would think you would be happy to start with that, correct?


I'm advocating ending it but I've mentioned the only way of ever doing that. Reread what I said so I don't have to repeat it.
No, I understood it fully well.  You advocate continuing to use force until some vague future in which everyone is willing to work in spite of the option of forcing me to feed them - and THEN they can stop forcing me to feed them.  I like my way better because then there is incentive for people to work to feed themselves.

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No, I'm  advocating a way for you to start keeping your money.
But again, your way relies on somehow convincing people to work even though we give the the option to take my money to feed themselves. 
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No, children shouldn't be taken from their parents.
So when you advocate "feeding children" you actually mean giving adults my money in hopes that they will use at least part of it to feed children.

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You've been told the statistics. Per capita Canada is doing a lot better than the US. Do I have to repeat the facts over and over to you?
So Canada excludes more Muslims/refugees/immigrants than the U.S. because Canada has so few people?  The solution is to include more people so that your population will grow to be as large as that of the U.S.  That's how the U.S. got a big population and why we are able to be so much more inclusive than Canada. 

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burnsred really! Obama was a US president and possibly one of the best if antiwar is important to us. He never really did get any kind of decent presidential war going! (comparisons)
Obama continued to fight two wars that he literally did not want to win.  That was absurd.
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And of course his ACA was brilliant from a Canadian POV. (see my link on US health care's failures.
Did Canadian health planners rely on the "stupidity of the . . . voter" the way ours did?

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What's wrong with income inequality?  If everyone had the same income whether they worked or not, there would be no incentive to work.

In fact, the lowest quintile has been disincentivized into not wanting to work. Not pay close attention: If [the minimum wagw were more than welfare payments and benefits] then those people would have an incentive to work.  If they can make as much on the dole then they won't work. And consequently they will have an incentive to steal your money. Simple libertarian logic there burnsred!
Yes!  Yes!  We do agree!

That's something I've been saying for years!!!!!!!!

Don't raise the minimum wage, lower welfare payments so they are much less than a worker making minimum wage.  It would be much cheaper and healthier to have group homes with cafeteria style eating.  Then watch unemployment drop and the need for guest workers vanish.


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Classic liberalism and libertarian are the same.
But you're a neo-liberal, which is just a socialist (by your own statements) who doesn't want to call himself that.

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  Let's start with marijuana laws.  As a libertarian, I say it's no one's business what someone else chooses to smoke.  What say you, liberal person?


Same, with a few reservations.
Which you don't state for some mysterious reason.  That is the reason liberalism and libertarianism will never match.  Libertarians have only one reservation:  No one should be allowed to initiate force against another.  Any other philosophy, liberal, conservative, populist, fascist, socialist, communist or whatever relies entirely on initiating force for implementation.

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Not just for my country but for all countries.  Libertarianism is an international movement whose economic theories were formulated in Austria and whose political theories were formulated in the British colonies on North America.


And which have been adulterated by ignorant people like skychief. And sadly, he's representative of this forum so far.
Not a statement that can possibly be argued against.

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. . . we recognize certain limitations that are important because we can't demand rights and privileges that fly in the face of the rights and privileges of the majority.
I still have no idea what that mantra means.

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Or rather, you can if you like but you'll be blowing smoke up a dead dog's ass. That dog is dead.
Is not blowing smoke up a dead dog's ass that one reservation you have about legalized marijuana?

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And now, shall we begin?
Uh, sure.  Go right ahead . . .


  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #15 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 5:30pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 29th, 2017 at 5:21pm:
No, I understood it fully well.  You advocate continuing to use force until some vague future in which everyone is willing to work in spite of the option of forcing me to feed them - and THEN they can stop forcing me to feed them.  I like my way better because then there is incentive for people to work to feed themselves.

But again, your way relies on somehow convincing people to work even though we give the the option to take my money to feed themselves. 
So when you advocate "feeding children" you actually mean giving adults my money in hopes that they will use at least part of it to feed children.

So Canada excludes more Muslims/refugees/immigrants than the U.S. because Canada has so few people?  The solution is to include more people so that your population will grow to be as large as that of the U.S.  That's how the U.S. got a big population and why we are able to be so much more inclusive than Canada. 

Obama continued to fight two wars that he literally did not want to win.  That was absurd.
Did Canadian health planners rely on the "stupidity of the . . . voter" the way ours did?

Yes!  Yes!  We do agree!

That's something I've been saying for years!!!!!!!!

Don't raise the minimum wage, lower welfare payments so they are much less than a worker making minimum wage.  It would be much cheaper and healthier to have group homes with cafeteria style eating.  Then watch unemployment drop and the need for guest workers vanish.


Quote:

But you're a neo-liberal, which is just a socialist (by your own statements) who doesn't want to call himself that.

Which you don't state for some mysterious reason.  That is the reason liberalism and libertarianism will never match.  Libertarians have only one reservation:  No one should be allowed to initiate force against another.  Any other philosophy, liberal, conservative, populist, fascist, socialist, communist or whatever relies entirely on initiating force for implementation.

Not a statement that can possibly be argued against.

I still have no idea what that mantra means.

Is not blowing smoke up a dead dog's ass that one reservation you have about legalized marijuana?

Uh, sure.  Go right ahead . . .




I think there's really no use in continuing to try to answer all your questions burnsred. They're just repeats of questions I've already answered, with anger and insults thrown in by you to satisfy your frustrations..

If you can't accept the simple fact that libertarians need to compromise on some of their rights to satisfy the majority's rights then you aren't proposing anything better than skychief and his admission that his brand of libertarianism can never work.

I assume you are content to just bitch and complain and tread water.

For anyone seeking a better way, just ask me about how Canada does it. That's what I'm here for!
  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #16 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 7:31pm
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Don_G,

Please tell me how Canada does it.

Please be very thorough.  Put all your points and arguments up front; I have no intention of pulling teeth to get your opinions out of you.

Don't ask a question like "where shall I begin" or any other stall.  Just start typing  . . .




  
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Crystallas
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #17 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 8:16pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 29th, 2017 at 7:31pm:
Don_G,

Please tell me how Canada does it.


I don't know why you bother. He isn't genuine, just here to troll the site.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #18 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 10:06pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 29th, 2017 at 7:31pm:
Don_G,

Please tell me how Canada does it.

Please be very thorough.  Put all your points and arguments up front; I have no intention of pulling teeth to get your opinions out of you.

Don't ask a question like "where shall I begin" or any other stall.  Just start typing  . . .



Health care for all the people.
Health care at half the cost per capita.-Canada
Government does it better and cheaper than private can.
Wife and I pay about $125/month.
Canada/US taxes are roughly equal for all the people.
Middle class and poor pay more in US.
Canada's health care is rated quite a bit better than US.
US health care is worst of all developed countries.
Would any Americans like to have a better HC plan?

Done!

  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Food a Right?
Reply #19 - Sep 29th, 2017 at 10:08pm
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That tells me nothing about how Canada does it.

But I said I'm not going to pull teeth, so . . . thanks for playing!

  
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