Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare? (Read 414 times)
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #20 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 1:24pm
Print Post  
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/healthcare/309069-why-is-healthcare-so-exp...

Quote:
The quality of the USA’s healthcare ranks last among the top eleven richest countries. We’re not getting better quality of care despite the expense. A major indicator of quality of healthcare, the USA has the second highest maternal mortality rate among high-income countries, and the rate in Texas recently doubled. Of course, some of our providers, capacity and innovation is truly enviable; but overall, we’re not better off despite the costs.


burnsred, I can't help you if you don't want to be helped.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #21 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 2:18pm
Print Post  
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/why-is-american-health-care...

Quote:
First, it really starts with the prices. While some developed countries have one health care insurance plan for everybody -- where the government either sets prices or oversees price negotiations -- the U.S. is unique in our reliance on for-profit insurance companies to pay for both essential and elective care. Twenty cents from every $1 goes, not to health care, but to "marketing, underwriting, administration, and profit," he says. In a system where government doesn't negotiate prices down, prices will be higher. In a system where for-profit companies need profit margins and advertising, prices will be higher.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #22 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 2:55pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Not much help in that article, really.  It only gives numbers to your claim that health care is more expensive in the states.  It doesn't answer the why, which is vital to the how (to bring those costs down).

The Socratic method is failing with you, so I'll just tell you.  The reasons that appendectomies, MRI's, and other treatments are more expensive are several-fold.  Here are just a few:

1)  Our doctors are paid more.  Your own article admitted that.  Americans don't want to go to low-budget doctors, so sue us.

2)  Speaking of suing - malpractice lawsuits add greatly to the cost of treatment in the U.S.  Yes, Canada has malpractice torts also, but not the out-of-control verdicts awarded by uneducated jurors eager to force "the rich" to pay. 

3)  The fee for an MRI in the states not only has to cover the costs of that MRI but also pay a share of the MRI's given to people who cannot afford to pay.  So, yes.  Many people pay $1,145 for an MRI, but when you add in the people who pay nothing, it would average to roughly the same as a Canadian MRI except . . .

4)  It is easy to keep costs down if you don't have to staff and equip your hospital for immediate service.  Remember how I was sent to get a CT scan the morning after my tumor was found?  That was after quickly being sent to a gastroenterologist by my Primary Care Provider.  To maintain that kind of readiness to service patients is of course more expensive than to tell people to take a number and we'll let you know when to come in.

5)  Canada admits far fewer immigrants than the U.S. does.  Plus we have hundreds of thousands of additional immigrants to those we admit who just walk in.  Canada has natural barriers to prevent that and the will to enforce their own border which is something the U.S. lacks.

In order to bring our costs down, we'd have to have, lower paid doctors (sending the best ones elsewhere), tort reform, closed borders, accept long, often deadly, waiting lists and an end to forcing hospitals to treat people who cannot pay or who can only pay the medicare/medicaid minimums. 

But, here's the thing, really:  The voters of the U.S. don't want any single-payer or any other form of further socialized medical care.  Even to pass the laughably named Affordable Care Act took lie after lie and lie by those promoting it and considerable arm twisting and legal bribery by the president to get his own party to pass it.  Now that they've seen the skyrocketing insurance premiums under the "affordable" care act, they will be even more reluctant to give up a system so good that people cross rivers, deserts and oceans to get to it.

And that affects you, how?  Why are non-Americans so keen to have us be like them?  Miserly loves company?  Tired of seeing your paisanos come to America for treatment?  Somehow the Brits were able to force Charlie Gard's parents to keep him in Britain where he died under their socialist health system.  Maybe you want similar laws to keep people like Danny Williams from leaving the reservation.

Respecfully, you know little to nothing about the U.S. and have shown a reluctance to learn (you don't want to learn).  The fact that you refer me to old magazine articles instead of using your own words shows me that you haven't thought this through. 

Please don't think me rude if I don't respond to anymore of your posts on the U.S. health system.  If you post something productive, I'll certainly give it the attention if deserves.  If it's more of the same then I'll do the same.
 

Quote:
oh, and btw, did you visit your doctor regularly? Regularly being what is considered as wise here in Canada?
Yes, every six months for mild hypertension.  Co-pays have stayed about the same, forty to fifty dollars or so.  Premiums have more than quadrupled since Obama took office.  Big Black foot in the door, indeed!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #23 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 3:32pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 2:55pm:
Please don't think me rude if I don't respond to anymore of your posts on the U.S. health system.  If you post something productive, I'll certainly give it the attention if deserves.  If it's more of the same then I'll do the same.


Of course. I was expecting that for exactly the reason I mentioned. But you've gotten it all over your shoe now so it's not going to be that easy.
 

Quote:
Yes, every six months for mild hypertension.  Co-pays have stayed about the same, forty to fifty dollars or so.  Premiums have more than quadrupled since Obama took office.  Big Black foot in the door, indeed!


The reason why the insurance companies have started to gouge more are of not much interest to me.

It's just obvious that it's not your country out of step with the world, it's the world that's out of step!

LOL
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #24 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 5:26pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 3:32pm:
The reason why the insurance companies have started to gouge more are of not much interest to me.


The only way any companies can get away with gouging is if they have been granted monopolies, or some monopoly advantages, by government. That makes them cronies of corrupt government... You aren't interested in talking about corrupt government?

In America, we inherited it from the Colonial Governments that morphed into the new State governments. Patronage were some of the spoils that went to the victor. Royal Governors appointed their cronies to collect taxes at the port... Stuff like that. Put them in positions where lots of money flowed through their hands.

Not surprisingly, they got rich...

The idea of America and the creation of the Constitution that was supposed to prevent that sort of thing had a hard row to hoe trying to drain the Colonial Government swamp, and never completely succeeded.

So we still have government corruption at all levels. It's a fact of life... Not to say they shouldn't be charged and tried, just to say that government must be kept small in order to keep government corruption manageable. There is no other way.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #25 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 8:36pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 5:26pm:
The only way any companies can get away with gouging is if they have been granted monopolies, or some monopoly advantages, by government. That makes them cronies of corrupt government... You aren't interested in talking about corrupt government?

In America, we inherited it from the Colonial Governments that morphed into the new State governments. Patronage were some of the spoils that went to the victor. Royal Governors appointed their cronies to collect taxes at the port... Stuff like that. Put them in positions where lots of money flowed through their hands.

Not surprisingly, they got rich...

The idea of America and the creation of the Constitution that was supposed to prevent that sort of thing had a hard row to hoe trying to drain the Colonial Government swamp, and never completely succeeded.

So we still have government corruption at all levels. It's a fact of life... Not to say they shouldn't be charged and tried, just to say that government must be kept small in order to keep government corruption manageable. There is no other way.


Yes jeff, another explanation on why your country is all screwed up. And a possible explanation of why your health care is so screwed up too.

As we work together we are finding answers to what the problems are, why they exist, and then soon some answers to solve the problems.

I think you're missing the biggest problem that is 'for profit' health care but you might know better than I.

Why not post a message asking the question and then post another message answering yourself. Then maybe another congratulating yourself for being so smart.

If that confuses you, wait until you sober up.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Reply #26 - Oct 3rd, 2017 at 10:08am
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 8:36pm:
I think you're missing the biggest problem that is 'for profit' health care but you might know better than I.


Did you know that Chinese Communists liberalized their economy to allow (some) for profit business to exist? And that (limited) for profit businesses are what drove the expansion of the Chinese economy (which had stagnated and failed for generations because profit was a crime?).

No. You refuse to admit the essential and basic realities of economics, realities that apply equally to the creation and delivery of medical services and to the production of food...

Let's re-visit the question of why the "socially responsible" policies of the North Korean Communists have kept North Koreans small... It's because the N. Korean Communists won't allow people to profit from producing food. Simple isn't it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › How come developed countries are able to provide universal healthcare?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy