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thermf5
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suaside is a moral right
Oct 1st, 2017 at 10:36am
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ur body ur bizness crappity smack how u make others feal who dumb idea was is to make suaside a crime
  
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SkyChief
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #1 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:19am
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Suicide is only a crime in some religions. The penalty is eternal damnation in hell - if you believe in that nonsense.

A libertarian recognizes individual sovereignty over him/herself (self-ownership). Meaning if he/she wants to take his/her own life, it is not a crime. 

Nobody ever went to jail for committing/attempting suicide. (afaik, anyway!)

There are some moral issues. What about the father of a large family who is the sole provider - the only wage earner? If he commits suicide, he leaves his entire family high and dry with no means to pay the mortgage, put food on the table, provide for themselves.   By taking his own life, he forces his family to beg the State for welfare.

So when contemplating suicide, a person should always consider the impact on his/her family/dependents.  (IMO)
  
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Jeff
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #2 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:32am
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:19am:
By taking his own life, he forces his family to beg the State for welfare.

(IMO)
There are other and better options. Besides, you don't "beg" for government mandated "entitlements", you either qualify or you don't, and bureaucrats set the standards for qualification.
  
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Don_G
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #3 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:32am:
There are other and better options. Besides, you don't "beg" for government mandated "entitlements", you either qualify or you don't, and bureaucrats set the standards for qualification.


Should the government (the police acting on behalf of the government) be empowered to prevent suicides?

Answer that question and we can have a discussion. I would say 'yes' and I'll give my reasons later.

  
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SkyChief
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #4 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:27pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:00pm:
Should the government (the police acting on behalf of the government) be empowered to prevent suicides?

Answer that question and we can have a discussion. I would say 'yes' and I'll give my reasons later.


They are indeed empowered to prevent suicides. If a person attempts suicide, and fails, they may be subject to "Civil Involuntary Detention" meaning they are forced to submit to a 96-hour period of observation (suicide watch). The suicidal person's 4th Amendment rights are suspended for this period of time. No arrest warrant is needed.

This Civil Involuntary Detention period can be extended to 21 days, 90 days, or one year for mental health treatment and 30 or 90 days for alcohol or drug treatment.  These extensions require a court order.

Of course, all this anti-libertarian.  Any time a person is forced (at gunpoint) to undergo treatment or therapy against his/her will, that is an aggression and not libertarian.
  
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Don_G
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #5 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:48pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:27pm:
They are indeed empowered to prevent suicides. If a person attempts suicide, and fails, they may be subject to "Civil Involuntary Detention" meaning they are forced to submit to a 96-hour period of observation (suicide watch). The suicidal person's 4th Amendment rights are suspended for this period of time. No arrest warrant is needed.

This Civil Involuntary Detention period can be extended to 21 days, 90 days, or one year for mental health treatment and 30 or 90 days for alcohol or drug treatment.  These extensions require a court order.

Of course, all this anti-libertarian.  Any time a person is forced (at gunpoint) to undergo treatment or therapy against his/her will, that is an aggression and not libertarian.


I would say that the 96 hour period makes good sense and so it would be a just curtailment of a person's rights. Compare it to throwing a person in jail for being accused of murder. And being forced to put up bail money to get out of jail. Or perhaps being refused bail. Would you argue with that?

The case of suicide is treated in somewhat the same way out of social responsibility toward the suicide attemptee.

When that a amount of time is exceeded, we would be looking at a more socially complicated situation.

The socially responsible answer is: When the treatment period is finished, which may have been a year in a mental hospital, will the patient go out and immediately jump off the nearest bridge? I would suggest that the answer is no except in maybe less than .1% of cases.

How would you handle these cases Chief? There's a test for you, the libertarian?
  
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Jeff
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #6 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 4:54pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:00pm:
Should the government (the police acting on behalf of the government) be empowered to prevent suicides?
What leads you to believe that policing can prevent suicides? As far as I know, people still sometimes kill themselves in maximum security prisons...

You ask a "should" question that's impossible. It's like asking "Should the government prevent everyone from growing old?"

In "Socially responsible systems" suicide is the most serious crime, to deprive the people of your labor. It's reactionary and counter-revolutionary. People who deprive the people of their labor were executed as Enemies of the People. Then they made their families suffer.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #7 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 5:49pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:48pm:
I would say that the 96 hour period makes good sense and so it would be a just curtailment of a person's rights. Compare it to throwing a person in jail for being accused of murder. And being forced to put up bail money to get out of jail. Or perhaps being refused bail. Would you argue with that?

Absolutely not. A person who has committed no felony should never have his/her rights curtailed. It's anti-libertarian for the State to forcefully curtail individual rights.   The government should be there to PROTECT these rights - not violate them!

Don_G wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 12:48pm:
How would you handle these cases Chief? There's a test for you, the libertarian?

If the person has committed a crime, then they have the right to legal counsel during araignment. If no crime has been committed, they cannot be held agaist their will.

A suicidal person can be offered emotional support therapy or even psychiatric therapy. The key word is offered.   If the person rejects any State-sponsored support/therapy, they must be released.
  
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Jeff
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #8 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 6:14pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 5:49pm:
Absolutely not. A person who has committed no felony should never have his/her rights curtailed. It's anti-libertarian for the State to forcefully curtail individual rights.   The government should be there to PROTECT these rights - not violate them!

If the person has committed a crime, then they have the right to legal counsel during araignment. If no crime has been committed, they cannot be held agaist their will.

That's how it works?

In our system, you have a right to legal counsel anytime, and violent people are often held in custody until they are tried, simply because it's proven to be a good idea.

But you are correct, if they are not proven guilty of criminal behavior, they are released.
  
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Don_G
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Re: suaside is a moral right
Reply #9 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 6:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 4:54pm:
What leads you to believe that policing can prevent suicides? As far as I know, people still sometimes kill themselves in maximum security prisons...

You ask a "should" question that's impossible. It's like asking "Should the government prevent everyone from growing old?"

In "Socially responsible systems" suicide is the most serious crime, to deprive the people of your labor. It's reactionary and counter-revolutionary. People who deprive the people of their labor were executed as Enemies of the People. Then they made their families suffer.


Jeff, you haven't got a clue so I'm not going to take the time to answer your nonsense. It seems that the more people try to include you in the conversation, the more abusive you get.
  
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