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Don_G
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Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Oct 1st, 2017 at 1:56pm
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https://www.rt.com/news/405262-assange-spain-eu-suspension/

A question for all libertarians to ponder. In my opinion it's not an easy straight forward question to answer.

Most people who aren't libertarians would answer according to their political preference in the particular situation. Be careful libertarians that you don't do just that!

I'm going to go with the country for a start but I could possibly be convinced to go the other way. No politics please, let's keep this pure.
  
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Land of Freedom
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #1 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 2:17pm
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Libertarians would have private land, even a private owned country; so the owners of the land should decide. But likely they would have a previous written agreement that would cover such decisions.

The owners of the land would vote their shares for leaders or any changes to the agreement/contract.
  

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Don_G
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #2 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 2:51pm
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Land of Freedom wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 2:17pm:
Libertarians would have private land, even a private owned country; so the owners of the land should decide. But likely they would have a previous written agreement that would cover such decisions.

The owners of the land would vote their shares for leaders or any changes to the agreement/contract.


I see. Well sort of anyway. If we can imagine that the Catalonians are landowners then I think you're saying that their rights supercede their country's claim to ownership of their land over and above the actual land owners.

I think that's a pretty good answer and it's left out the politics of the particular situation and remained pure to the libertarian's agenda. That is, if I've understood you right?

This sort of thing has been happening all over the world lately. I think that any country that completely subscribed to that policy would be leaving itself wide open to any small groups coming into their country and buying up a large chunk of land. Say for instance Chinese people coming to the US and buying up half a small state for example.

Can you imagine measures being taken to eliminate that eventuality?

Am I on to the reasoning that you have suggested or did I misunderstand you?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #3 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 4:39pm
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I strongly support Catalonia's referendum for independence. The voters were denied their right to cast ballots for the referendum by police and Spanish Civil Guard officers who used State-sanctioned violence and force to muzzle the Catalonian voters. 

In the video, the officers were kicking defenseless women voters who were seated on the floor.

Outrageous! 

Article 7, clause #3:

  Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.



When the State suspends the rights of "natural and legal" persons, it is a huge red flag. Disenfranchised Catalonian voters should be outraged.

edit: I added the bold
  
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Don_G
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #4 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 6:34pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 4:39pm:
I strongly support Catalonia's referendum for independence. The voters were denied their right to cast ballots for the referendum by police and Spanish Civil Guard officers who used State-sanctioned violence and force to muzzle the Catalonian voters. 

In the video, the officers were kicking defenseless women voters who were seated on the floor.

Outrageous! 

Article 7, clause #3:

  Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.



When the State suspends the rights of "natural and legal" persons, it is a huge red flag. Disenfranchised Catalonian voters should be outraged.

edit: I added the bold


Chief please! Lan of Freedom set the tone for the conversation by doing what I asked by done. Leave the bloody partisan politics out of it. And you don't have the basic intelligence to just do that. It was meant to get answers from libertarians on the overall principle that is being put to the test.

Land of Freedom understood that and commented appropriately. I didn't put down his answer and in fact I commended him on it. Then I went on to ask questions around his response.

But you can't understand that and so you go off on a wild goose chase after boogeymen who may spoil your simplistic daydream.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #5 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 6:45pm
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Naturally, you would take the Statist position on the referendum. No surprises there. You really painted yourself into a corner this time, Don_G.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #6 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:33pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 6:45pm:
Naturally, you would take the Statist position on the referendum. No surprises there. You really painted yourself into a corner this time, Don_G.


I would ask you about what your position would be if a group of Chinese people came from China and bought up half of one of your states, and then decided to install it's own government, if I thought you would be able to understand the question.


  
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SkyChief
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #7 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 3:57am
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Don_G wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:33pm:
I would ask you about what your position would be if a group of Chinese people came from China and bought up half of one of your states, and then decided to install it's own government, if I thought you would be able to understand the question.

We have protocols for that. It's called secession.  Congress has to vote on it.  There are petitions for a ballot measure for secession in California. Its called Calexit. They need 585,000 signatures.  I refused to sign it because the US would collapse if California were to seceed from the Union.  70% of the nation's food comes from California - the country would starve.  Cry

How's that for socially responsible capitalism? 
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 6:49am
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An individualist position is that smaller and smaller political units are always better until finally absolute individual liberty (individual sovereignty) is attained.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Catalonian's Rights or a Country's Rights?
Reply #9 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 7:13am
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Don_G wrote on Oct 1st, 2017 at 1:56pm:
https://www.rt.com/news/405262-assange-spain-eu-suspension/

A question for all libertarians to ponder. In my opinion it's not an easy straight forward question to answer.

Most people who aren't libertarians would answer according to their political preference in the particular situation. Be careful libertarians that you don't do just that!

I'm going to go with the country for a start but I could possibly be convinced to go the other way. No politics please, let's keep this pure.

Where/how would a "country" acquire rights?
  
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