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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote? (Read 389 times)
burnsred
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Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Oct 1st, 2017 at 9:10pm
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Any thoughts?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #1 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 10:58pm
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The vote to split has succeeded. Haven't heard any other details yet.

I tried to introduce the topic in a different way because poltics plays such a big part in it with these pseudo-libertarians. They're likely going to be on the side of the Catalonians but if it was a group splitting from the US they would more likely be the opposite.

And I have a feeling that people of your persuasion would be asking that the cops break lots of heads, Kent state style. Would that be right?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #2 - Oct 1st, 2017 at 11:00pm
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And I have a feeling that people of your persuasion would be asking that the cops break lots of heads, Kent state style. Would that be right?
My persuassion is libertarian so of course, that would be wrong.  Except for your idea to reduce unemployment by reducing welfare available to people who refuse to work, you haven't been right much lately, Don.

  
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #3 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 10:28am
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Good for them!  There may be more hurdles to clear for the Catalonians.  I was happy to hear when UK won the Brexit referendum.  The EU parliament is a board of unelected oligarchs who claim sovereignty over 28 countries.  It can't be any more un-libertarian than that!   Angry

The EU was a good idea initially, but like all other governing bodies, it became infested with power-drunken socialists who just want total control of everything.  The EU will naturally do everything they can to obstruct Catalonia's independence. I forsee some challenges for Catalonia.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #4 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 10:47am
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So, 90% of the 42.6% who voted, voted to secede.  Not exactly unequivocal. 

I think it should be up to the Spaniards via some sort of representative and democratic process, hopefully they can resolve it peacefully. 

  
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #5 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 11:42am
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 10:47am:
So, 90% of the 42.6% who voted, voted to secede.  Not exactly unequivocal. 

I think it should be up to the Spaniards via some sort of representative and democratic process, hopefully they can resolve it peacefully. 


Spainish Police confiscated the ballot boxes from many precincts. Were those among the votes that were counted?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #6 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 11:44am
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 10:47am:
So, 90% of the 42.6% who voted, voted to secede.  Not exactly unequivocal. 

I think it should be up to the Spaniards via some sort of representative and democratic process, hopefully they can resolve it peacefully. 



That's a little ambiguous ahhell. Are you saying that Spain should honour their decision or refuse to accept the results.

It's difficult for me too because to be honest one has to consider the same thing happening in one's own country. And maybe by a group that aren't quite as legitimate as the Catalonians. If indeed the Catalonians are legitimate.

I think your approach is at least honest and not just kneejerk reaction to a difficult question. Even though I don't consider it an adequate answer. Mine isn't either but it's because of lack of evidence on the whole story.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #7 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 12:05pm
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A very motivated and vocal minority of Catalans want independence or at least are dissatisfied with the current situation enough to vote for secession from Spain in a non binding referendum.  Its unclear how the majority of Catalans would vote if they had the opportunity to do so in a binding referendum. 

Given the results, in hind sight, its clear the central government shouldn't tried to suppress the vote. I'd bet the majority of pro-spain voters didn't bother to vote.  Why would you, in a non-binding referendum?

As a rule, I support self determination.  There is a reasonable question as to what constitutes a legitimate polity to vote on such matters. Clearly, I can't have vote in my house to decide to secede from the US but should"

A.  My HOA be able to?
B. My county?
C.  My State?
D. My region?

A and B, probably not, C and D probably but it depends on the nature of the grievances.

As for Catalan, its none of my business and I don't know enough about the situation to say much more than I have.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 12:15pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 12:05pm:
A very motivated and vocal minority of Catalans want independence or at least are dissatisfied with the current situation enough to vote for secession from Spain in a non binding referendum.  Its unclear how the majority of Catalans would vote if they had the opportunity to do so in a binding referendum. 

Given the results, in hind sight, its clear the central government shouldn't tried to suppress the vote. I'd bet the majority of pro-spain voters didn't bother to vote.  Why would you, in a non-binding referendum?

As a rule, I support self determination.  There is a reasonable question as to what constitutes a legitimate polity to vote on such matters. Clearly, I can't have vote in my house to decide to secede from the US but should"

A.  My HOA be able to?
B. My county?
C.  My State?
D. My region?

A and B, probably not, C and D probably but it depends on the nature of the grievances.

As for Catalan, its none of my business and I don't know enough about the situation to say much more than I have.


Excellent, if you don't mind me saying! That's a responsible libertarian reply.

I would have preferred to hear it on the other thread that I started for the purpose because it doesn't ask the question specifically for this Catalonian issue. It asks the question in a general way that would test libertarians. And you have passed the test!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Take on the Catalonia Vote?
Reply #9 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 6:09pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 2nd, 2017 at 12:15pm:
Excellent, if you don't mind me saying! That's a responsible libertarian reply.

I would have preferred to hear it on the other thread that I started for the purpose because it doesn't ask the question specifically for this Catalonian issue. It asks the question in a general way that would test libertarians. And you have passed the test!

Could it have been a deliberate ploy to bring tyrants into focus, so as to know who to indict and try?

How many wars has Spain been involved in now anyway? Do they hold the World Record? I'll check with the Bureau of Records...
  
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