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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer (Read 339 times)
burnsred
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #30 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 9:32am
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My take on the where species came from is irrelevant in a discussion of libertarianism because I don't want to force anyone to think as I do.

Now, which version of Darwinism do you want to force parents to teach their children?  The accidental or the purposeful version?



Darwinism is Darwinism, there aren't two versions for evolutionists but maybe there is for creationists?

You don't want us to talk about that so I won't. But you could at least tell us if you're a creationist. Can a creationist not proclaim to be one? Will the god tolerate that kind of backsliding just because one of his disciples is embarrassed over it?

Oh, and are you an ID'er? People who won't proclaim their faith is what make statues of Mary weep.
I see this is going to be a sticking point for you so I will be happy to tell you my stand on the origin of species controversy:

I'm not a creationist because creationism is merely an attempt to give scientific credence to a religious belief that appears to be in conflict with existing evidence about speciation.  The propontents of creationism would be more honest by simply saying WTTE of, "God told us how animals, plants and man were created so no amount of evidence will convince us otherwise."  Dismissing all evidence that the universe is billions of years old by saying, "God made it look that way" only concedes the point that the universe by observation is billions of years old.

Darwinism and neo-Darwinism provide the most nearly scientific speculation about the origin of species.  However, I can't say that "I'm a Darwinist" because while there is a mountain of literature about natural selection there is only an anthill of evidence, if that.  So almost any study of origins is by definition natural history rather than science.

Intelligent Design theory certainly has a point about the appearance of design in life on Earth.  But by pointing to an intelligent designer, they only move the mystery by one step.  There is no scientific hypothesis about how the designer originated and no scientific hypothesis about the nature of the designer.  So intelligent design theory itself seems intelligently designed not to explain origins scientifically but to fit with the beliefs of almost any religion except atheism. 

That's why I'm so intrigued by your claim that the processes of evolution are not accidental.  You seem very confident about that, yet you disparage the concept of intelligent design. 

This will be my own sticking point, I'm afraid.  I enjoy debating your claim that liberal positions are actually libertarian ones, but I can argue against liberal positions on the other forum I've mentioned.  So I will defer any discussion about those positions until you've explained  your ideas about evolution being non-accidental.


 

« Last Edit: Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:11pm by burnsred »  
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Don_G
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #31 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 1:44pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 9:32am:
I see this is going to be a sticking point for you so I will be happy to tell you my stand on the origin of species controversy:


Thand you, you've spent a lot of time and effort thinking that one out!

I'm not a creationist because creationism is merely an attempt to give scientific credence to a religious belief that appears to be in conflict with existing evidence about speciation.  The propontents of creationism would be more honest by simply saying WTTE of, "God told us how animals, plants and man were created so no amount of evidence will convince us otherwise."  Dismissing all evidence that the universe is billions of years old by saying, "God made it look that way" only concedes the point that the universe by observation is billions of years old. [/quote]

The only part of that which is relevant is the word 'appears'. It doesn't just appear, it is. The rest is window dressing that need not be preached to an evolutionist. What could you have been thinking?

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Darwinism and neo-Darwinism provide the most nearly scientific speculation[/b[ about the origin of species.  However, I can't say that "I'm a Darwinist" because while there is a mountain of literature about natural selection there is only an [b]anthill of evidence, if that.  So almost any study of origins is by definition natural history rather than science.

Trying to say that Darwinism is speculation is a creationist argument. Stop hiding it. There is not just an anthill of evidence, there are mountains of evidence in fossils. If you don't accept natural selection then you are a creationist. A closet creationist, if such a creature exists. So say it and get past it, you're suggesting that the god's selection is worth considering aren't you!

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Intelligent Design theory certainly has a point about the appearance of design in life on Earth.


No it doesn't. It was pseudo-science and it was completely destroyed by real science. There is no ID claim that has been left standing that science hasn't either proven to be false or has just ignored because of it's ridiculousness.

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  But by pointing to an intelligent designer, they only move the mystery by one step.


"They" did no such thing. 

There is no scientific hypothesis about how the designer originated and no scientific hypothesis about the nature of the designer.  So intelligent design theory itself seems intelligently designed not to explain origins scientifically but to fit with the beliefs of almost any religion except atheism. 


There is no designer in science. Intelligent design was proven to be a fraud and it was based on bad science. They did religion irreparable damage with their bad science. It can't be defended in any way, except by creationists using faith.

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That's why I'm so intrigued by your claim that the processes of evolution are not accidental.  You seem very confident about that, yet you disparage the concept of intelligent design.


I don't feel confident about it at all and I've said as much. I really still don't have any idea of what context you were on about. If you want to try to continue to use it then you're going to have to explain yourself. 

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This will be my own sticking point, I'm afraid.  I enjoy debating your claim that liberal positions are actually libertarian ones, but I can argue against liberal positions on the other forum I've mentioned.  So I will defer any discussion about those positions until you've explained  your ideas about evolution being non-accidental.


State your position on my comment on evolution being non-accidental and I'll face it head on. Right now, depending on the context, it could also be that evolution is accidental.

You've said enough in that post to make it clear to me that you are attempting to discredit evolution, Darwinian or otherwise. Then you're attempting to leave yourself hanging somewhere between that and creation.

If we're going to talk evolution then you have to leave the 'faith' part out of it. You know that. If you want to talk the faith based side then we can do that too, in a separate conversation.

Do you believe in Darwinian evolution?


 

  
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Jeff
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #32 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 4:53pm
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OK Donat dear, here's your challenge-

"State your position on my comment on evolution being non-accidental and I'll face it head on."

If you believe that evolution is not accidental, then you believe it is planned and directed, which requires that there be a planner and director. Your position is clear.

All we are asking is who/what do you think is doing the planning and directing?

  
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #33 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 6:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 4:53pm:
OK Donat dear, here's your challenge-

"State your position on my comment on evolution being non-accidental and I'll face it head on."

If you believe that evolution is not accidental, then you believe it is planned and directed, which requires that there be a planner and director. Your position is clear.

All we are asking is who/what do you think is doing the planning and directing?

Don't be silly Jeff. Some things aren't accidental but also don't have a who/what planner. Evolution is no accident but nobody planned it. Dawkins explains it for you if you would forget about the god for a minute and read some science on evolution.

Do you think the evolution of chimps and humans from a common ancestor was accidental.

Welcome to the grownup's conversation. Don't abuse the privilege.
  
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #34 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 6:11pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 6:09pm:
Don't be silly Jeff. Some things aren't accidental but also don't have a who/what planner.
Can you provide an example of that? Thanks.
  
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burnsred
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #35 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 7:51pm
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State your position on my comment on evolution being non-accidental and I'll face it head on. Right now, depending on the context, it could also be that evolution is accidental.


If and/or when it is non-accidental, it is on purpose.  So my questions to you are what is the purpose and who or what is furthering that purpose?
  
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #36 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:14pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 7:51pm:
If and/or when it is non-accidental, it is on purpose.  So my questions to you are what is the purpose and who or what is furthering that purpose?


No, if it's not accidental then it doesn't have to be on purpose or done by an IDer. Here's an example for you because you are continuing to be so persistent in trapping me into admitting something I don't believe: Pay attention.

If you drop a piece of meat into a petrie dish it will rot. That's not accidental but the god had nothing to do with it.

And that's about the way it happened for people who believe the theory on the primordial ooze. I like it but it's not the only possibility. Creation is not one of the others.

You're a closet creationist and you need to be honest and just admit it.


  
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burnsred
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #37 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:34pm
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No, if it's not accidental then it doesn't have to be on purpose or done by an IDer. Here's an example for you because you are continuing to be so persistent in trapping me into admitting something I don't believe: Pay attention.

If you drop a piece of meat into a petrie dish it will rot. That's not accidental but the god had nothing to do with it.
Correct, it's not accidental and no god intervened.  But an intelligent being chose to drop the meat into the petrie dish instead of eating or freezing it.  An even more intelligent being designed the petrie dish and a still more intelligent being discovered why we can expect the meat to rot.  That's why your example is not accidental but clearly on purpose.

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And that's about the way it happened for people who believe the theory on the primordial ooze.
But was the primordial ooze accidental?  If so then everything that was caused by its existence was accidental also, right?  Unless, as in your example, an intelligent being prompted the ooze to do its work.
  
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #38 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:49pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:34pm:
Correct, it's not accidental and no god intervened.  But an intelligent being chose to drop the meat into the petrie dish instead of eating or freezing it.  An even more intelligent being designed the petrie dish and a still more intelligent being discovered why we can expect the meat to rot.  That's why your example is not accidental but clearly on purpose.


Alright then, if you want to go around in circles trying to make some point, I'll fix it.

An frog walked into a pool of warm water and the water started to boil because it was in yellowstone. and it then cooked and rotted. And it's a true story because yogi said it was.

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But was the primordial ooze accidental?  If so then everything that was caused by its existence was accidental also, right?  Unless, as in your example, an intelligent being prompted the ooze to do its work.


The moon is made of blue cheese and that's not accidental. The Martians are using it as a storehouse for aging cheese.

Oh wait, the blue in the cheese was caused by the ID'er cause he didn't like processed cheese food slices all that much.

You need to talk to Jeff and get his opinion now.
  
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Re: March 2016, I was diagnosed with esophogeal cancer
Reply #39 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:52pm
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Only JW's and Mormons go to that extreme to make their points on their creationism. We all know how they stand with a foot in your front door in the middle of winter.

We slam the door in their faces but how in hell do we get rid of one on a forum?

Ask him about blood transfusions and why they will let their childrent die for want of one?
  
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