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burnsred
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Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Oct 4th, 2017 at 11:13am
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I got little in the way of specifics in my previous thread.  Maybe people don't like to be negative.  For better or worse, libertarianism means restraining police since they are one manifestation of the armed power of the government.  So, describing how they should act in accordance with principles of libertarianism will necessarily be primarily a list of "don'ts."

I'll start:

In a libertarian system, police officers do not

1)  Demand ID from a person not breaking the law "just so I know who I'm talking to" or "for my report I have to make" or "for my safety."  They can request ID, but if the law-abiding person refuses, they don't threaten arrest, ask what the person has to hide or lie that the U.S. requires that a citizen be ready to "show me your papers."

2)  Write a quota (or whatever the department calls its de facto quotas) of tickets in order to generate revenues for salaries, new body armor or nicer offices for the deputy chiefs.  A libertarian police force writes tickets only to those who break the law in a way that interferes with the right of other motorists to drive safely  They do not "tax" people hundreds of dollars for exceeding a speed limit that was set artificially low in order to make it easy for police to trap speeders.

3)  Lie to citizens in order to obtain confessions or other information from them.  Shockingly, our USSC has allowed police to lie to suspects.  How they think a confession can be relied on to be true when it originated from a lie is beyond me.  Clearly being lied to by a representative of the law is the opposite of due process.

Any more to add?  Any "do's?"



  
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SkyChief
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #1 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 11:44am
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Another to add to the DON'T list:  A Police officer should never lose their cool.  Easier said than done, no doubt.  Many law-enforcement confrontations turn deadly when officers become agitated or angered at a suspect because of insults or personal remarks aimed at the officer.

Many citizens have lost their lives because some hot-headed police officer became enraged and used excessive or deadly force to aprehend a suspect.  Nobody can forget about Walter Scott who was shot in the back by a North Charleston officer while running away on foot from a fix-it ticket traffic stop!  It was a tragic example of how a simple routine situation ended in death because of a law enforcement officer allowed his pride and prejudice prevail over common sense and training.

Cops are human beings - they have emotions like everyone else. But a cop should never allow his emotions to prevail over his/her law-enforcement training and deadly-force protocols.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #2 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 11:56am
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A good point supported by several other good points, SkyChief.  In this our own police might look to the police of other nations, especially the UK.  Based on my admittedly limited knowledge based on social media, Brit police seem to have far less problems respecting the rights of citizens and not taking things personally than ours in the U.S.

Americans pride themselves on not being rule followers but our rights depend on law enforcement holding themselves accountable to the rules even moreso than they hold criminals accountable.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #3 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:39pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 11:13am:
I got little in the way of specifics in my previous thread.  Maybe people don't like to be negative.  For better or worse, libertarianism means restraining police since they are one manifestation of the armed power of the government.  So, describing how they should act in accordance with principles of libertarianism will necessarily be primarily a list of "don'ts."


That's understandable because pseudo-libertarians are usually short on lists of 'dos. That's what you'll have to get to later.

I'll start:

In a libertarian system, police officers do not

1)  Demand ID from a person not breaking the law "just so I know who I'm talking to" or "for my report I have to make" or "for my safety."  They can request ID, but if the law-abiding person refuses, they don't threaten arrest, ask what the person has to hide or lie that the U.S. requires that a citizen be ready to "show me your papers." [/quote]

If there weren't Muslim terrorists trying to get revenge against the US this would be possible and likely wouldn't have become the problem it's grown into. So to expect police to stop asking people they suspect may be terrorists is not possible right now. Not to mention Trump's initiative to kick out all the illegal Hispanics which you support. But a good idea for the future maybe?

Quote:
2)  Write a quota (or whatever the department calls its de facto quotas) of tickets in order to generate revenues for salaries, new body armor or nicer offices for the deputy chiefs.  A libertarian police force writes tickets only to those who break the law in a way that interferes with the right of other motorists to drive safely  They do not "tax" people hundreds of dollars for exceeding a speed limit that was set artificially low in order to make it easy for police to trap speeders.


Tickets for traffic violations are taxation and help avoid the government stealing your money. You just need to be lawabiding to avoid that form of taxation. You've on to something good! Make that a 'do'.
As for trapping people by setting speed limits too low. If it's true then it would be corruption in government. I can say it doesn't happen in Canada. I've never got a speeding ticket in Canada but I did get one in Washington state. It was my fault.

Quote:
3)  Lie to citizens in order to obtain confessions or other information from them.  Shockingly, our USSC has allowed police to lie to suspects.  How they think a confession can be relied on to be true when it originated from a lie is beyond me.  Clearly being lied to by a representative of the law is the opposite of due process.


How a confession that originated from a lie can be relied upon is definitely beyond you. Can you provide us some evidence to show that is actually true in real life? It sounds a lot like you have a hard-on for authority figures.

Quote:
Any more to add?  Any "do's?"



Yeah, that's the important part that you missed.

Here's one:

1. Authorize police to confiscate weapons that are turned into machine guns, regardless of the method used to do it. That would be true libertarianism because it would be acting to protect people, and that's what the police are for after all.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #4 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm
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I generally agree except I don't really mind suspects being lied to, except about their rights. 

One of the biggest issues with policing in the US is that cops aren't being held as accountable as regular citizens let alone to a higher standard.  How  do we fix that?

Would libertarian policing include a federal agency tasked with holding state and local police to account?

Concrete things I favor:

Police body and dash cams where the footage is saved to a server in the control of a third party.  Perhaps the state or local defense attorneys?

Any police shooting or killing, the cop should be immediately be suspended and the incident should be tried as assault or murder.  At least reviewed by a third party; the State, Feds, citizen review board something of that sort. 

I would also take guns away from most american cops.  They just aren't necessary for most cops outside big cities.  I'd also limit the number of swat type teams available.  No more than X SWAT officers per some number of people.  1 such team per most big cities or per most counties.  Perhaps only allow the State governments to operate them?

Decriminalize drugs. Also gambling and prostitution but that's less important.

Constitutional amendment to ban civil asset forfeiture, shouldn't be necessary as its not a legitimate use of state power under the constitution but there you go.  There should be no legals case that is titled "any government entity vs this shitload of money."
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #5 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:49pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 11:56am:
A good point supported by several other good points, SkyChief.  In this our own police might look to the police of other nations, especially the UK.  Based on my admittedly limited knowledge based on social media, Brit police seem to have far less problems respecting the rights of citizens and not taking things personally than ours in the U.S.

Americans pride themselves on not being rule followers but our rights depend on law enforcement holding themselves accountable to the rules even moreso than they hold criminals accountable.



It's likely too late for the US to change it. The police are walking around in your country, armed to the teeth with an urge to kill. It's the gun-gun mentality for the most part. In defense of the police, they're likely to ecnounter a criminal with a gun.

Even stopping somebody for speeding, there's likely a gun in the speeder's car and the police officer knows the odds that his life is in danger. It's likely irreversible.

The first change needs to come from citizens and that would likely be making it illegal to carry a handgun in a car. Then policiing would at least have an opportunity to change.

I would say, in defense of gun rights, had sensible controls been enacted earlier than that which I advocate wouldn't be necessary. Now more extreme measures must be sought. Although still not taking away any real or important rights of citizens. It becomes a 'do' because it gives back rights.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #6 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:54pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:49pm:
It's likely too late for the US to change it. The police are walking around in your country, armed to the teeth with an urge to kill. It's the gun-gun mentality for the most part. In defense of the police, they're likely to ecnounter a criminal with a gun.

Even stopping somebody for speeding, there's likely a gun in the speeder's car and the police officer knows the odds that his life is in danger. It's likely irreversible.

The first change needs to come from citizens and that would likely be making it illegal to carry a handgun in a car. Then policiing would at least have an opportunity to change.

I would say, in defense of gun rights, had sensible controls been enacted earlier than that which I advocate wouldn't be necessary. Now more extreme measures must be sought. Although still not taking away any real or important rights of citizens. It becomes a 'do' because it gives back rights.
You and the police are of course wrong regarding the likelyhood of encountering a gun wielding criminal or speeder.  That false perception is one the cops desperately want to maintain as it maintains their power.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #7 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:55pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
I generally agree except I don't really mind suspects being lied to, except about their rights. 

One of the biggest issues with policing in the US is that cops aren't being held as accountable as regular citizens let alone to a higher standard.  How  do we fix that?

Would libertarian policing include a federal agency tasked with holding state and local police to account?

Concrete things I favor:

Police body and dash cams where the footage is saved to a server in the control of a third party.  Perhaps the state or local defense attorneys?

Any police shooting or killing, the cop should be immediately be suspended and the incident should be tried as assault or murder.  At least reviewed by a third party; the State, Feds, citizen review board something of that sort. 

I would also take guns away from most american cops.  They just aren't necessary for most cops outside big cities.  I'd also limit the number of swat type teams available.  No more than X SWAT officers per some number of people.  1 such team per most big cities or per most counties.  Perhaps only allow the State governments to operate them?

Decriminalize drugs. Also gambling and prostitution but that's less important.

Constitutional amendment to ban civil asset forfeiture, shouldn't be necessary as its not a legitimate use of state power under the constitution but there you go.  There should be no legals case that is titled "any government entity vs this shitload of money."


Taking guns away from most cops? As usual your ideas are more progressive than the others.

But in a nutshell, the horse is out of the barn and it can't be put back in.

If you would take guns away from cops, why would you be afraid to take guns away from motorists? Or at least demand that they be carried in a locked box in the trunk. Too many Americans have a handgun in the glove box, on the seat, in their pocket, or in their hand already. Your idea of taking guns away from cops is likely an honest attempt to curtail the violence but it's just a non-starter.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #8 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:54pm:
You and the police are of course wrong regarding the likelyhood of encountering a gun wielding criminal or speeder.  That false perception is one the cops desperately want to maintain as it maintains their power.


I hear you ahhell but I'm not convinced. The reason why I'm not is because epidemic proportions could be as small as 1 in a hundred have handguns.

And that puts the odds for the police officer at even for a day's work. Not that I'm suggesting it's that small but that's an issue to consider by finding out.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #9 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 1:02pm
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A quick search found this for a start:

https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-American-gun-owners-carry-one-regularly

6.06% of adults have a concealed carry permit. That doesn't count those who carry guns illegally or don't have a concealed carry permit but carry guns lawfully.
  
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