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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is (Read 1824 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #10 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 1:43pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
Concrete things I favor:

Police body and dash cams where the footage is saved to a server in the control of a third party.  Perhaps the state or local defense attorneys?

Smiley

ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
Any police shooting or killing, the cop should be immediately be suspended and the incident should be tried as assault or murder.  At least reviewed by a third party; the State, Feds, citizen review board something of that sort. 

Smiley  conditionally.  Every police shooting should be thoroughly investigated. This investigation may result in a an assault or murder charge, but it should first be reviewed by a board before presented to a Grand Jury for indictments.   

ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
I would also take guns away from most american cops.  They just aren't necessary for most cops outside big cities. 

Shocked    Smiley



ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
Decriminalize drugs. Also gambling and prostitution but that's less important.

Smiley

ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
Constitutional amendment to ban civil asset forfeiture, shouldn't be necessary as its not a legitimate use of state power under the constitution but there you go.  There should be no legals case that is titled "any government entity vs this shitload of money."

Smiley
  
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #11 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 1:45pm
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@Don

I can't find much on how often police encounter guns in the hands of criminals or other non-police but:

http://nypost.com/2013/12/30/fewest-police-deaths-by-firearms-in-2013-since-1887...

Quote:
According to the report, 111 federal, state, local, tribal and territorial officers were killed in the line of duty nationwide this past year, compared to 121 in 2012.

Forty-six officers were killed in traffic related accidents, and 33 were killed by firearms.

The number of firearms deaths fell 33 percent in 2013 and was the lowest since 1887.
In 2016, 64 officers were murdered while 108 killed themselves.  Its seems cops are a greater threat to themselves than armed citizens are a threat to them.

Its the 15th most dangerous job in America, mostly due to the driving.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-...

https://www.officer.com/training-careers/article/12293261/police-suicides-in-201...

@Sky,

I know, I'm in a tiny minority, maybe of just 1, that thinks we ought to dramatically reduce the guns available to cops.  How do you feel about limiting the number of SWAT type teams available?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #12 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:11pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 1:45pm:
@Don

I can't find much on how often police encounter guns in the hands of criminals or other non-police but:

http://nypost.com/2013/12/30/fewest-police-deaths-by-firearms-in-2013-since-1887...

In 2016, 64 officers were murdered while 108 killed themselves.  Its seems cops are a greater threat to themselves than armed citizens are a threat to them.

Its the 15th most dangerous job in America, mostly due to the driving.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-...

https://www.officer.com/training-careers/article/12293261/police-suicides-in-201...


Your links and statistics are impressive!
Well, at least on the face of it. Had the police officers not had their guns then there would most likely be a far different story to tell. I'm suggesting that eliminating part of the problem that is overzealous police resorting to their guns, you would have made the problem of gun deaths much worse.

Even the days of the English Bobbies are nearly gone now, out of necessity. However, I highly commend you on your intentions!

Quote:
@Sky,

I know, I'm in a tiny minority, maybe of just 1, that thinks we ought to dramatically reduce the guns available to cops.  How do you feel about limiting the number of SWAT type teams available?


The only way I could be supportive of you would be to say that cops need to be more carefully screened as to personality types. I have police officer friends who are good cops and also I know of some bad cops, as in the way they express themselves.

Swat teams? That's a hard one to answer. Maybe I could say that if the regular police didn't know that they could rely on a swat team then they would be better at performing their jobs in dealing with gun crime. We know that when it gets to the 'swat team' stage that it's highly unlikely that there won't be people being shot dead. The objective has to be on capturing the criminal alive. Swat teams are usually very successful in keeping themselves safe so I would suggest they could be more successful if they had that intention in mind.

The question leads me elsewhere too. I am concerned with the citizen's mentality that he has the right to kill another person on his property who is committing a crime against him or his family. Concerns about people being shot dead has to be more than just about cops.

But I really feel we're just putting the cart before the horse because we've not talked about any sort of sensible gun control that wouldn't infringe on anybody's rights.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #13 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:21pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 1:45pm:
@Don
  How do you feel about limiting the number of SWAT type teams available?

In some small towns like Mayberry,  SWAT type teams are not necessary. Sheriff Taylor and Deputy Fife are enough to maintain law and order in a town of 5306 persons.

In large metro cities where organized crime is prevalent, SWAT units are needed because the bad guys are likely to outgun the police - like what happened 20 years ago in North Hollywood. LAPD was overpowered and outgunned by two heavily-armed/armored desperados.  A SWAT detail would have neutralized those perps in a few minutes.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #14 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:43pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:21pm:
In some small towns like Mayberry,  SWAT type teams are not necessary. Sheriff Taylor and Deputy Fife are enough to maintain law and order in a town of 5306 persons.

In large metro cities where organized crime is prevalent, SWAT units are needed because the bad guys are likely to outgun the police - like what happened 20 years ago in North Hollywood. LAPD was overpowered and outgunned by two heavily-armed/armored desperados.  A SWAT detail would have neutralized those perps in a few minutes.

I do not disagree but in my opinion, I believe backed by evidence, those instances are few and far between and could be served even a state like CA by just a few such teams positioned in a few large cities and called on when needed. 

Currently we use SWAT teams to serve even minor arrest warrants.  It seems to be a tool in search of a problem.   

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #15 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:50pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:21pm:
In some small towns like Mayberry,  SWAT type teams are not necessary. Sheriff Taylor and Deputy Fife are enough to maintain law and order in a town of 5306 persons.

In large metro cities where organized crime is prevalent, SWAT units are needed because the bad guys are likely to outgun the police - like what happened 20 years ago in North Hollywood. LAPD was overpowered and outgunned by two heavily-armed/armored desperados.  A SWAT detail would have neutralized those perps in a few minutes.


I think he's more interested in a thoughtful discussion on the need for swat teams. Not your isolated incident that speaks in favour of more swat teams. But I could be wrong. He hasn't really stated a position other than to show his social responsibility of discussing the problems.

But as usual, the minority speaks out an tries to find solutions to the problem without addressing the root of the problem.

That is, lack of sensible gun control.

It's pretty obvious that the majority that wants some form of gun control is large now. The problem is, the Republicans in the US congress are being held hostage by the leadership of the NRA. Not the members themselves apparently because they voice support for some gun control measures being taken.

And the really odd thing about it is that libertarians on this forum are complicit in their support of that bad government.

One reason why I call you people pseudo-libertarians.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #16 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 4:51pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:43pm:
  Currently we use SWAT teams to serve even minor arrest warrants.  It seems to be a tool in search of a problem.   

Agreed.   Smiley

This is scary:

http://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/swat-teams-can-now-enter-your-home-...

In direct violation of the 4th Amendment. (Possibly in violation of the 3rd Amendment)
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #17 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 5:08pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 2:50pm:
But as usual, the minority speaks out an tries to find solutions to the problem without addressing the root of the problem.

That is, lack of sensible gun control.

The term Sensible means different things to different people. What is sensible to you might not seem sensible to someone else.

Is "gun control" a violation of the Bill of Rights?

68% say Yes.        32% say No.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-gun-control-a-violation-of-the-bill-of-rights
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #18 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 5:10pm
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The last time a Law Officer shot anyone in my county was before all the current Officers were born.

Certainly things are bad in the big cities controlled by regressives for generations... What's that to me?
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #19 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 5:14pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 11:44am:
Another to add to the DON'T list:  A Police officer should never lose their cool.  Easier said than done, no doubt.  Many law-enforcement confrontations turn deadly when officers become agitated or angered at a suspect because of insults or personal remarks aimed at the officer.

Right, and sometimes those same idiots pull out guns and shoot cops. It's not easy for Police to decide who will and who won't shoot them... Makes a body nervous you know?


  
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