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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #140 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 5:17pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 9:55am:
The problem with doing that is that it encourages officers to feel that they are entitled to see an ID from anyone they ask it from.
You think cops like to go around demanding ID? They do it to prove they are macho or something?

The real problem is, because officers of the law are so often called on to deal with dirtbags, that they begin to think everyone they encounter is a dirtbag who probably wants to kill them. 

The secret to dealing with officers who think you might be just another dirtbag trying to kill them is to try real hard right from the beginning to show them you are not a dirtbag wanting to kill them...

Pretend you are civilized and respectful and they probably won't club you to the ground.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #141 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:35pm
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burnsred talks a lot more like an extremist with a hard-on for any authority or authority figure than like a libertarian. That's the reason he's getting wrong so often Jeff, and why you have to correct him.

Although it's fair to say that he is needing to correct you as often. the main point is, there aren't two pseudo-libertarians agreeing with each other. Fat chance of that agenda succeeding!
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #142 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 5:17pm:
You think cops like to go around demanding ID? They do it to prove they are macho or something?
I actually do believe that they like demanding ID.  They see a law-abiding person that they decide to question since "we've had calls" or "it is a little odd that you're . . ."   If that person doesn't answer the questions or isn't respectful enough I absolutely believe they like demanding ID.  Because once they get the ID of a person who isn't showing enough deference to suit them, they can hold them as long as they like to run the ID and hope for a warrant so they can slap the cuffs on.

Youtube "first amendment audit" or "second amendment audit" and you will see that exact behavior by police officers in all locations of all genders, colors and ethnicities.  Not a one time thing but over and over the same scenario is played out as if from the same script.


Quote:
The real problem is, because officers of the law are so often called on to deal with dirtbags, that they begin to think everyone they encounter is a dirtbag who probably wants to kill them. 
The time for an officer to quit and become a firefighter, a teacher or a plumber is right after they start thinking that and well before they have their next encounter with a taxpayer.

Quote:
The secret to dealing with officers who think you might be just another dirtbag trying to kill them is to try real hard right from the beginning to show them you are not a dirtbag wanting to kill them...

Pretend you are civilized and respectful and they probably won't club you to the ground.
I am quite civilized and respectful.  I would never approach an officer rudely but I am naive enough to be surprised if an officer were to approach me rudely.  Would it be sufficient to say, "No sir, I prefer not to show you my ID or answer any questions since I'm not breaking any laws?"  For many police officers, the answer is no.

How far would you go to convince an officer that you are civilized and respectful once you realize that they assume you are a dirtbag who is trying to kill them?  Would you let them pat you down?  What about a full search?  Search of your car?  Would you sit on the ground?  Would you keep your hands out of your pockets for an angry officer's "safety" even if he had his hand on the but of his pistol?  Where, if anywhere, do you draw the line?
 

  
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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #143 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:51am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:27pm:
I actually do believe that they like demanding ID.  They see a law-abiding person that they decide to question since "we've had calls" or "it is a little odd that you're . . ."   If that person doesn't answer the questions or isn't respectful enough I absolutely believe they like demanding ID.  Because once they get the ID of a person who isn't showing enough deference to suit them, they can hold them as long as they like to run the ID and hope for a warrant so they can slap the cuffs on.

Youtube "first amendment audit" or "second amendment audit" and you will see that exact behavior by police officers in all locations of all genders, colors and ethnicities.  Not a one time thing but over and over the same scenario is played out as if from the same script.


The time for an officer to quit and become a firefighter, a teacher or a plumber is right after they start thinking that and well before they have their next encounter with a taxpayer.

I am quite civilized and respectful.  I would never approach an officer rudely but I am naive enough to be surprised if an officer were to approach me rudely.  Would it be sufficient to say, "No sir, I prefer not to show you my ID or answer any questions since I'm not breaking any laws?"  For many police officers, the answer is no.

How far would you go to convince an officer that you are civilized and respectful once you realize that they assume you are a dirtbag who is trying to kill them?  Would you let them pat you down?  What about a full search?  Search of your car?  Would you sit on the ground?  Would you keep your hands out of your pockets for an angry officer's "safety" even if he had his hand on the but of his pistol?  Where, if anywhere, do you draw the line?
 

There are well over 1,000,000 police in the U.S.
Some of them aren't nice people, and some of them don't work for nice people, especially in big cities with "progressive" political appointees running the police force.

It's certainly not surprising that there are plenty of YouTube videos of cops behaving badly.

Have you ever had a cop "approach you rudely"? What were the circumstances? I had a State Policeman "approach me rudely" once after I yelled at him out of my car window as I passed by where he was parked. He didn't hear what I actually yelled, but he could probably tell by my tone of voice and facial expression that it wasn't "Nice job officer!"

Anyway, if you are "approached rudely" for no apparent reason, I would recommend asking "How can I help you officer?" And showing ID if he asks. You might know for an absolute certainty that you haven't broken any laws, but the cop might think you have, in some cases because you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and the cops think you are someone else, someone who has broken laws and who they are looking for.
If it appears that they intend to arrest you and charge you with something anyway, cooperation will still be your best bet, but I'd certainly ask "Am I under arrest Sir?" and "What is it you think I've done?"

I can't imagine cops asking permission to pat me down. If they did ask, I would probably ask "What are you looking for and what makes you think I have it?" If they put me against the wall and pat me down then, there isn't much I can do except let them, but I wouldn't give them permission  to search either me or my car.

I won't say that there are not bad cops being exposed in YouTube videos, but a lot of the videos don't show things like the chase the "victim" of the cops led them on before the video started, or what was happening when the cops first showed up.

Oh, keep you hands in plain sight. Have them in plain sight when an officer approaches. If they are in your pockets, remove them slowly as officers approach. Let them see your hands are empty. It makes them feel comfortable.

  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #144 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:47pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:51am:
There are well over 1,000,000 police in the U.S.
Some of them aren't nice people, and some of them don't work for nice people, especially in big cities with "progressive" political appointees running the police force.

It's certainly not surprising that there are plenty of YouTube videos of cops behaving badly.

Have you ever had a cop "approach you rudely"? What were the circumstances? I had a State Policeman "approach me rudely" once after I yelled at him out of my car window as I passed by where he was parked. He didn't hear what I actually yelled, but he could probably tell by my tone of voice and facial expression that it wasn't "Nice job officer!"

Anyway, if you are "approached rudely" for no apparent reason, I would recommend asking "How can I help you officer?" And showing ID if he asks. You might know for an absolute certainty that you haven't broken any laws, but the cop might think you have, in some cases because you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and the cops think you are someone else, someone who has broken laws and who they are looking for.
If it appears that they intend to arrest you and charge you with something anyway, cooperation will still be your best bet, but I'd certainly ask "Am I under arrest Sir?" and "What is it you think I've done?"

I can't imagine cops asking permission to pat me down. If they did ask, I would probably ask "What are you looking for and what makes you think I have it?" If they put me against the wall and pat me down then, there isn't much I can do except let them, but I wouldn't give them permission  to search either me or my car.

I won't say that there are not bad cops being exposed in YouTube videos, but a lot of the videos don't show things like the chase the "victim" of the cops led them on before the video started, or what was happening when the cops first showed up.

Oh, keep you hands in plain sight. Have them in plain sight when an officer approaches. If they are in your pockets, remove them slowly as officers approach. Let them see your hands are empty. It makes them feel comfortable.



You've always been an apologist for gun violence and as you apologize for the police you just promote more of the same.

Isn't it just all some sort of double talk to hide the root cause of racism. That is, a race problem that has been promoted by the south because of Obama's dark skin. And then capitalized on by Trump because his lowlife follower just love it and swoon over it!

Don't sweat it Jeff, while Trump is president it's going to continue to get worse. After Trump the problems such as this one can be addressed and you can start all over again as it if was 2008!

Except it will be the sixties with the southern states on fire.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #145 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 1:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:51am:
There are well over 1,000,000 police in the U.S.
Some of them aren't nice people, and some of them don't work for nice people, especially in big cities with "progressive" political appointees running the police force.

It's certainly not surprising that there are plenty of YouTube videos of cops behaving badly.

Have you ever had a cop "approach you rudely"? What were the circumstances? I had a State Policeman "approach me rudely" once after I yelled at him out of my car window as I passed by where he was parked. He didn't hear what I actually yelled, but he could probably tell by my tone of voice and facial expression that it wasn't "Nice job officer!"

Anyway, if you are "approached rudely" for no apparent reason, I would recommend asking "How can I help you officer?" And showing ID if he asks. You might know for an absolute certainty that you haven't broken any laws, but the cop might think you have, in some cases because you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and the cops think you are someone else, someone who has broken laws and who they are looking for.
If it appears that they intend to arrest you and charge you with something anyway, cooperation will still be your best bet, but I'd certainly ask "Am I under arrest Sir?" and "What is it you think I've done?"

I can't imagine cops asking permission to pat me down. If they did ask, I would probably ask "What are you looking for and what makes you think I have it?" If they put me against the wall and pat me down then, there isn't much I can do except let them, but I wouldn't give them permission  to search either me or my car.

I won't say that there are not bad cops being exposed in YouTube videos, but a lot of the videos don't show things like the chase the "victim" of the cops led them on before the video started, or what was happening when the cops first showed up.

Oh, keep you hands in plain sight. Have them in plain sight when an officer approaches. If they are in your pockets, remove them slowly as officers approach. Let them see your hands are empty. It makes them feel comfortable.

If a police officer is really uncomfortable at the sight of a citizen with his hands in his pockets, the time to quit law enforcement is now.  The Post Office is hiring.  I don't have to act as if I expect to be under suspicion every time a police officer sees me.  I don't think most of them are the least bit frightened at the sight of a person with hands in pockets.  It an old sales trick to make innocuous requests to get the buyer used to complying and then escalate from there.

"Can I ask you to take your hands out of your pockets?  Just for my safety?"

Can I see your ID real quick?" (it won't be 'real quick' by a long ways)

"I need you to sit on the ground for my safety."

"If there's nothing in your car you're not supposed to have, do you mind if I check it real quick?"

We have the right to refuse all those requests and the officers know it or they would be giving commands, not requests.  Yet they become irrational and demanding when a citizen refuses to "cooperate" with the loss of his rights.

Libertarians are fond of saying, "Why pass more gun laws when we don't enforce the ones we already have?"  My question is "Why demand more rights if we don't exercise the ones we already have?"

   

I have been approached rudely by police officers.  Most of the time they are very polite as they hand me a citation for driving the same speed as I drove every day before with no problems.  Once I was pulled over and I had no idea what for.  I took your advice about hands and got out my ID and insurance and held my hands out the window with them.  Somehow that set them off because the one at my driver's window started yelling "how come you ran that red light?"  I clearly remembered stopping at the last light behind some other cars so I had no idea what he meant.  I said, "I didn't realize I had run a red light."   

Turned out he meant the previous intersection at which I turned left.  I'm guessing the light turned red after I got in the intersection but by that time, I had no memory of it.  I don't know if he thought I was being a wise guy by showing my hands, like implying that he really was as afraid as they want us to think they are.  Maybe he was upset because it took them a while to catch up with me and I hadn't noticed their lights being on.  Bottom line is they had a rough patch during a work day.  Happens to all of us but all of us don't carry guns and badges and think that gives us the right to become abusive when we're in a bad mood.   

Anyway, that happened a long time ago and it was a pretty mild experience compared to what some people go through with police officers.  If we are ever going to have a libertarian society, we have to avoid having lower-level government officials think that they can over-ride the liberarian laws we pass.  Check out those videos I recommended.  You will see officers smirk at court rulings and twist the plain meaning of state laws or outright lie about them in order intimidate people who are committing no crime whatsoever.  Start with News Now Houston on Youtube.

Sure it's easier to just comply and move on.  But no one ever said libertarianism was easy.  Or if they did, they sure lied.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #146 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 2:26pm
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Burnsred says: Quote:
Most of the time they are very polite as they hand me a citation for driving the same speed as I drove every day before with no problems.


That tells us all we need to know about his attitude. He's clearly whining about being caught speeding on one day, when he got away with it on other days. There's no other way of reading it!

This has nothing to do with his claims of being a libertarian, it's speaks too clearly of his inability to accept authority that tells him to live within the laws of the land.

Does it have a lot to do with his dislike of government? If so he needs to grow up and limit his protesting to valid complaints that are adult in nature and just a little bit legitimate.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #147 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 3:59pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
If a police officer is really uncomfortable at the sight of a citizen with his hands in his pockets, the time to quit law enforcement is now.
Yes, if he walks into the local bank and sees the bank manager with his hands in his pockets and goes berserk on him, it's past time to fire him... But that almost never happens.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #148 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 3:59pm:
Yes, if he walks into the local bank and sees the bank manager with his hands in his pockets and goes berserk on him, it's past time to fire him... But that almost never happens.


Or if he insists on demanding that law-abiding people he encounters to take their hands out of their pockets "for my safety."  That happens pretty often.

  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #149 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:24pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:07pm:
Or if he insists on demanding that law-abiding people he encounters to take their hands out of their pockets "for my safety."  That happens pretty often.

Where? When?

If it's late at night or early in the morning in an area where the police just arrived on a call about an attempted burglary, or an assault or the robbery of a store, and you happen to be in the area minding your own business, uncover your face and keep you hands in sight. Say yes Sir, no Sir, and don't lie to them. It's what they often expect in such situations. They are used to it. They can usually tell you are lying and it pisses them off. When they are looking for a reported armed mugger, they are already nervous. If you keep your hands in your pockets, lie to them and start talking about your rights... Don't expect them to be polite. In that situation, I would pull my gun on you and be ready to draw up and shoot.
  
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