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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is (Read 1846 times)
burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #150 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:24pm:
Where? When? (do police insist that law-abiding citizens take their hands out of pockets "for my safety?"

If it's late at night or early in the morning in an area where the police just arrived on a call about an attempted burglary, or an assault or the robbery of a store, and you happen to be in the area minding your own business, uncover your face and keep you hands in sight. Say yes Sir, no Sir, and don't lie to them. It's what they often expect in such situations. They are used to it. They can usually tell you are lying and it pisses them off. When they are looking for a reported armed mugger, they are already nervous. If you keep your hands in your pockets, lie to them and start talking about your rights... Don't expect them to be polite. In that situation, I would pull my gun on you and be ready to draw up and shoot.
Especially if I started talking about "that 'rights' bullshit?"

Again, you're taking the same position I used to take until I saw so many police encounters with citizens in which police acted badly and were enraged by people not immediately forgoing their rights.  In those situations, it is the police who lied, spoke disrespectfully and hid their identity.  Not at three in the morning next to a bank that just got robbed, but in broad daylight on a public sidewalk in which the only event that drew police attention was a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen taking pictures in public.

Youtube "News Now Houston" for a good start on seeing this problem for what it is.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #151 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 6:52pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:59pm:
Especially if I started talking about "that 'rights' bullshit?"

Again, you're taking the same position I used to take until I saw so many police encounters with citizens in which police acted badly and were enraged by people not immediately forgoing their rights.  In those situations, it is the police who lied, spoke disrespectfully and hid their identity.  Not at three in the morning next to a bank that just got robbed, but in broad daylight on a public sidewalk in which the only event that drew police attention was a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen taking pictures in public.

Youtube "News Now Houston" for a good start on seeing this problem for what it is.



Isn't it rather ironic that I have never seen that happen in Canada, other than maybe the ocassional rude cop.

It's saying something about rights and how to preserve one's rights. It's something that Americans don't seem to have any perception on how to go about doing it.

Could it have something to do with the gun violence in the US, which is due to too many assault rifles, hanyman machine guns, and handguns? Or is it more likely traced back to a big racism problem?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #152 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:13pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:59pm:
Especially if I started talking about "that 'rights' bullshit?"


Right. Circumstances are important. If you keep your hoodie over your face, keep your hands in your pockets and say "I'm not showing you no stinkin' ID or taking my hands out of my pockets. I don't have to show you shit, pig, I got rights!", and the cops are looking for an armed mugger, before they leave you, they are going to make absolutely sure you are not armed and that you have no outstanding warrants.

I didn't call the rights bullshit.  You did.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #153 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:21pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:13pm:
Right. Circumstances are important. If you keep your hoodie over your face, keep your hands in your pockets and say "I'm not showing you no stinkin' ID or taking my hands out of my pockets. I don't have to show you shit, pig, I got rights!", and the cops are looking for an armed mugger, before they leave you, they are going to make absolutely sure you are not armed and that you have no outstanding warrants.

I didn't call the rights bullshit.  You did.


Burnsred has a hard-on for authority. In fairness, it runs deep in the ranks of pseudo-libertarians.

My guess is it's second only to a personal experience that made them turn against mainstream government. How would you like to know some of those personal bad experiences jeff?

We'll start with yours!
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #154 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 7:13pm:
Right. Circumstances are important. If you keep your hoodie over your face, keep your hands in your pockets and say "I'm not showing you no stinkin' ID or taking my hands out of my pockets. I don't have to show you shit, pig, I got rights!", and the cops are looking for an armed mugger, before they leave you, they are going to make absolutely sure you are not armed and that you have no outstanding warrants.

I didn't call the rights bullshit.  You did.
What if I don't cover my face, I'm in public in broad daylight, I'm breaking no law and I politely decline to hand over ID?

Should I be left alone or should force be initiated against me?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #155 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:16pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 6:52pm:
Isn't it rather ironic that I have never seen that happen in Canada, other than maybe the ocassional rude cop.
I explained already why Canadian cops are less prone to violate citizen's rights than U.S. police. 


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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #156 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:19am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:13pm:
What if I don't cover my face, I'm in public in broad daylight, I'm breaking no law and I politely decline to hand over ID?

Should I be left alone or should force be initiated against me?
Sure. Circumstances matter. You are not obligated to identify yourself, it's just that sometimes, it's a good idea.
Maybe you match the description of somebody they are looking for.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #157 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:59am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:19am:
Sure. Circumstances matter. You are not obligated to identify yourself, it's just that sometimes, it's a good idea.
Maybe you match the description of somebody they are looking for.


How, by being a male wearing shoes?  Or whatever other "match" the police dream up?

Sorry, but too often race and gender are the only descriptions police have of a suspect and I'm not willing to give up my right to be left alone by the government because I'm a white male in an area in which "there've been a lot of burglaries" or "we got some calls" or "in this day and age with all the terrorist" or "with all the people killing cops these days" or any other specious justification a policeman dreams up for me to allow his curiosity to trump my rights.

Maybe you think it's none of my business if you choose to comply with police demands that you"show your papers and spread 'em" but you make it harder for libertarians who disagree with such intrusive policing that distracts them from catching people who are actually committing crimes.  I get that a tired guy waiting on the sidewalk for a ride home from work is an easier target for "investigation" than an actual criminal.  But if anyone told them at the academy that police work is supposed to be easy, they lied like a rug.  Sadly, not an uncommon failing in law enforcement folk.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #158 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:10am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:59am:
How, by being a male wearing shoes?  Or whatever other "match" the police dream up?
There are two sides to the story. There are good cops and bad cops, just like there are good citizens and bad citizens.

If you think you have come into contact with bad cops, it's best to be polite and cooperate. As a matter of fact, that's a good idea when you come in contact with good cops too.

The real problem, the root of the problem, is above the level of cops on patrol. It is in government; Government that does not respect our rights, government that turns a blind eye to corruption and wrongdoing, not just in police forces, but all throughout government.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #159 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:29am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:10am:
There are two sides to the story. There are good cops and bad cops, just like there are good citizens and bad citizens.
Right.  Where are the good cops?  They aren't speaking up in cases like the nurse arrest.  They stood there with thumbs up their butts while an out of control detective assaulted and kidnapped a health care provider doing her job.  I'm thinking you just ignore my links, but in case you do bother with them take a look a this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-zwmHAZ5Kk

Which one is the good cop?  Officer "because I said so!" or the one who stood there with her hands in the pockets of her very clean uniform while her partner yelled at and whined to a rescue volunteer?

Quote:
If you think you have come into contact with bad cops, it's best to be polite and cooperate. As a matter of fact, that's a good idea when you come in contact with good cops too.
I'll be polite and cooperate with all legal requests.  What I won't do is play along with them breaking the law when they are paid to enforce the law. 

Quote:
The real problem, the root of the problem, is above the level of cops on patrol. It is in government; Government that does not respect our rights, government that turns a blind eye to corruption and wrongdoing, not just in police forces, but all throughout government.
That's exactly right.  But the effect is felt by citizens at the lower levels, not in the halls of congress, the governor's mansions or even in the roll call room of the police station.  Citizens feel the effect of intrusive government in an encounter with police or with an IRS auditor or with a clerk at the DMV.  That's the place to stand up to government arrogance, because making a complaint is useless once the event is over.

  
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