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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is (Read 3132 times)
Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #20 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 5:56pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 5:08pm:
The term Sensible means different things to different people. What is sensible to you might not seem sensible to someone else.

Is "gun control" a violation of the Bill of Rights?

68% say Yes.        32% say No.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-gun-control-a-violation-of-the-bill-of-rights


It's a loaded question. You're either deliberately trying to not be honest or you're too stupid to understand. The majority of NRA members are in favour of some control control. Try to understand that enoough to google it to see it's true. Or don't, it's  your people who are getting whacked with guns.
  
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Billie
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #21 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 6:04pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 5:56pm:
The majority of NRA members are in favour of some control control.
Get a grip lizard!

Civilized people want to punish convicted violent felons for even trying to buy guns, and most certainly for possessing them or using them in crimes. That's the NRA position too, civilized.

It's not our fault if you are not smart enough to understand.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #22 - Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:13pm
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I generally agree except I don't really mind suspects being lied to, except about their rights.
Agree to disagree.  What about this compromise:  investigators can lie to their suspects as long as the get approval from their supervisor for the specifics of the planned lie, that the lie is recorded so that the jury can hear the officer lying so that they can judge the sincerity of his purported truths in testifying to them?

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One of the biggest issues with policing in the US is that cops aren't being held as accountable as regular citizens let alone to a higher standard.  How  do we fix that?

Would libertarian policing include a federal agency tasked with holding state and local police to account?
Too much downside and enough upside.  What is  needed is citizens who hold police accountable.  We need to stop with the 'Oh, you're a first responder!  Thank you for your service!  *smooch, smooch, smooch*

We do need to hold police sergeants and other leaders' feet to the fire to make sure they understand that they are to have a supervisory relationship with their subordinate officers and not to try to prove they are 'one of the boys in blue' when an officer abuses a citizen.  Not to mention peer pressure from the good cops.  In that case where the nurse was arrested for obeying the law, everyone wants to dump on that scrummy looking detective who put on the cuffs.  But his lieutenant ordered the arrest and four or five fellow officers stood by while he did it.  Where were these "good cops" who are being unfairly tarnished by a "few bad apples?"  Why aren't they throwing the bad apples out?


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Concrete things I favor:

Police body and dash cams where the footage is saved to a server in the control of a third party.  Perhaps the state or local defense attorneys?
Hear, hear.  As of now, officers choose when to turn them on or have the ability to disable them.  That's no accountability at all.

Quote:
Any police shooting or killing, the cop should be immediately be suspended and the incident should be tried as assault or murder.  At least reviewed by a third party; the State, Feds, citizen review board something of that sort.
Ok, disagree in the other direction.  I'd say the incident should be investigated by a third party and I sure like the idea of civilian review boards if they are local. 
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I would also take guns away from most american cops.  They just aren't necessary for most cops outside big cities.  I'd also limit the number of swat type teams available.  No more than X SWAT officers per some number of people.  1 such team per most big cities or per most counties.  Perhaps only allow the State governments to operate them?
I have a different take on police and firearms which I will start another thread about. 

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Decriminalize drugs. Also gambling and prostitution but that's less important.
Yep!

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Constitutional amendment to ban civil asset forfeiture, shouldn't be necessary as its not a legitimate use of state power under the constitution but there you go.  There should be no legals case that is titled "any government entity vs this shitload of money."
Yep!  Yep!

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #23 - Oct 5th, 2017 at 9:28am
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SnarkySack wrote on Oct 4th, 2017 at 8:13pm:
Agree to disagree.  What about this compromise:  investigators can lie to their suspects as long as the get approval from their supervisor for the specifics of the planned lie, that the lie is recorded so that the jury can hear the officer lying so that they can judge the sincerity of his purported truths in testifying to them?
Interrogations should be recorded regardless, so I could be on board with you on that. 

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Too much downside and enough upside.  What is  needed is citizens who hold police accountable.  We need to stop with the 'Oh, you're a first responder!  Thank you for your service!  *smooch, smooch, smooch*
I agree

Quote:
We do need to hold police sergeants and other leaders' feet to the fire to make sure they understand that they are to have a supervisory relationship with their subordinate officers and not to try to prove they are 'one of the boys in blue' when an officer abuses a citizen.  Not to mention peer pressure from the good cops.  In that case where the nurse was arrested for obeying the law, everyone wants to dump on that scrummy looking detective who put on the cuffs.  But his lieutenant ordered the arrest and four or five fellow officers stood by while he did it.  Where were these "good cops" who are being unfairly tarnished by a "few bad apples?"  Why aren't they throwing the bad apples out?
All true but I think that is a change in the culture of policing that will take a lot of work and time.  I also think the unions are partly to blame on this one.   Like most public employees, cops are near impossible to fire or discipline.


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Hear, hear.  As of now, officers choose when to turn them on or have the ability to disable them.  That's no accountability at all.
yep

Quote:
Ok, disagree in the other direction.  I'd say the incident should be investigated by a third party and I sure like the idea of civilian review boards if they are local. 
I have a different take on police and firearms which I will start another thread about.
  Oh, I know, I'm way out on a limb with that one.


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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #24 - Oct 5th, 2017 at 1:07pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 5th, 2017 at 9:28am:
  I also think the unions are partly to blame on this one.   Like most public employees, cops are near impossible to fire or discipline.


Very true!

What does a libertarian do?

Here's the beginning of an answer. Police forces unionize in other countries and work fine.

Continue ...............................................
  
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Billie
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #25 - Oct 5th, 2017 at 4:26pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 5th, 2017 at 1:07pm:
Very true!

What does a libertarian do?

Here's the beginning of an answer. Police forces unionize in other countries and work fine.
"Fine"?

Libertarians/classic liberals should support "fine" unionized police?

I don't think that's a good idea...

Certainly not without knowing all about the unions...

Are they Communist controlled? Or just "socially responsible government granted monopolies" controlled by mobsters or the Voltarian CIA?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #26 - Oct 5th, 2017 at 7:29pm
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Billie wrote on Oct 5th, 2017 at 4:26pm:
"Fine"?

Libertarians/classic liberals should support "fine" unionized police?

I don't think that's a good idea...

Certainly not without knowing all about the unions...

Are they Communist controlled? Or just "socially responsible government granted monopolies" controlled by mobsters or the Voltarian CIA?


It's another question you can avoid answering because you don't even pretend to be a libertarian. But again, it must stick in the Chief's craw a bit. Considering he's capable of understanding the question?

How's my composition so far?
  
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Billie
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #27 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 7:17am
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Don_G wrote on Oct 5th, 2017 at 7:29pm:
It's another question you can avoid answering because you don't even pretend to be a libertarian. But again, it must stick in the Chief's craw a bit. Considering he's capable of understanding the question?

How's my composition so far?
Can people understand what you just said? What question does it relate to?

Anyway, it's no surprise that the most problems with Police come from unionized Police in big regressive controlled cities, which, not surprisingly, are in serious financial trouble.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-05/these-two-charts-depict-which-cities-wi...
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #28 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 12:00pm
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Billie wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 7:17am:
Can people understand what you just said? What question does it relate to?

Anyway, it's no surprise that the most problems with Police come from unionized Police in big regressive controlled cities, which, not surprisingly, are in serious financial trouble.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-05/these-two-charts-depict-which-cities-wi...


It's all about pseudo-libertarians not allowing workers to unionize. Again, it's your rights are more important than the rights of the others.

If my composition bothers you then begin to reflect back on what you have said that caused a reply. And I'll try too!

There's just no way libertarianism can ever be considered unless socalled libertarians become conscious of the rights of others being just as important as theirs.

But it's still possible and that's what I'm here to teach. You Jeff, are progressing faster than the others because you inject a note of caution and sanity into some of the conversations. Gun topics are an example.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #29 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 12:31pm
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Billie wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 7:17am:
Can people understand what you just said? What question does it relate to?
No.  Either Don is deliberate opaque or obtuse in his "questions" to libertarians or its so clear in his head that he can't understand why the rest of us don't understand what he's even asking.

When asked to clarify he will respond with something to effect of you not being smart enough to understand but maybe someother forum member is almost there.  Then post some vague non sequiturs as though they're deep truths.


  
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