Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 17 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is (Read 1756 times)
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 3448
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #60 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:17pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:16pm:
Police  lying to convict people is wrong.

You differ?


Non-sequitur
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #61 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:21pm
Print Post  
Quote:
It's the job of citizens to know what our rights are.  It's not the government's job to do it.  Miranda was also a made up right by activist courts.  Miranda and your bullet point 3 protect criminals, not citizens.  The Constitution was written to protect the innocent, not the guilty
If I were asking about "effective police work" you might have a point.  But I'm talking about libertarian police work.  That shouldn't be an oxymoron. 

I'm talking about police officers who are just as dedicated to protecting the right to not self-incriminate and the right to due process just as strongly as they protect the right to own property and the right to live. 

Police officers shouldn't lie in an investigation because you can't prompt the truth with lies.  One lie leads to another and then an innocent person gets convicted.  Telling a suspect who has been questioned for hours, discouraged from consulting an attorney and refused permission to drink or go to the bathroom that "your friend told us everything.  If you don't say you did it, you will go to prison.  Tell us you did and you could be out of here before the sun comes up" when none of that is true could easily lead to a false confession.

It's not like there're so many empty cells in our prisons that we can't afford to pass up a conviction.  I'm for long sentences to be served in humane prisons AFTER a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt during an ethically and constitutional due process.  Build more prisons to hold the criminals and protect the victims.  Or stop putting people in jail for victimless "crimes" such as drugs, prostitution and gambling.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 3448
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #62 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:29pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:21pm:
If I were asking about "effective police work" you might have a point.  But I'm talking about libertarian police work.  That shouldn't be an oxymoron. 

I'm talking about police officers who are just as dedicated to protecting the right to not self-incriminate and the right to due process just as strongly as they protect the right to own property and the right to live. 

Police officers shouldn't lie in an investigation because you can't prompt the truth with lies.  One lie leads to another and then an innocent person gets convicted.  Telling a suspect who has been questioned for hours, discouraged from consulting an attorney and refused permission to drink or go to the bathroom that "your friend told us everything.  If you don't say you did it, you will go to prison.  Tell us you did and you could be out of here before the sun comes up" when none of that is true could easily lead to a false confession.

It's not like there're so many empty cells in our prisons that we can't afford to pass up a conviction.  I'm for long sentences to be served in humane prisons AFTER a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt during an ethically and constitutional due process.  Build more prisons to hold the criminals and protect the victims.  Or stop putting people in jail for victimless "crimes" such as drugs, prostitution and gambling.




Like Jeff you can't address how lying to an innocent person gets them convicted of a crime.  And like Jeff, screw the public, you want to let criminals off to go commit more crimes.

Government is corrupt, government lies.  Government lies constantly.  You want to do nothing about any of it other than the one case where it actually helps innocent people.  When cops lie to criminals to convict them.

You're right, you're "red," you're not libertarian.  No worries, neither is Jeff.  He has some libertarian leanings, but when push comes to shove he loves government as much as you do.  Starting with the government welfare check he calls "social security"
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #63 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:46pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Like Jeff you can't address how lying to an innocent person gets them convicted of a crime.


I can and I did:

Telling a suspect who has been questioned for hours, discouraged from consulting an attorney and refused permission to drink or go to the bathroom that "your friend told us everything.  If you don't say you did it, you will go to prison.  Tell us you did and you could be out of here before the sun comes up" when none of that is true could easily lead to a false confession.
Quote:
And like Jeff, screw the public, you want to let criminals off to go commit more crimes.


No, I said:

I'm for long sentences
Quote:
Government is corrupt, government lies.  Government lies constantly.  You want to do nothing about any of it other than the one case where it actually helps innocent people.  When cops lie to criminals to convict them.


It's not an either/or.  I don't want goverment lying to people who are suspects in criminal investigations and I don't want goverment lying to people about why we "have to" intervene in another country's conflicts.

Quote:
You're right, you're "red," you're not libertarian.  No worries, neither is Jeff.  He has some libertarian leanings, but when push comes to shove he loves government as much as you do.  Starting with the government welfare check he calls "social security"


One Don_G on the board is enough.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 3448
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #64 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:54pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:46pm:
I can and I did:

Telling a suspect who has been questioned for hours, discouraged from consulting an attorney and refused permission to drink or go to the bathroom that "your friend told us everything.  If you don't say you did it, you will go to prison.  Tell us you did and you could be out of here before the sun comes up" when none of that is true could easily lead to a false confession.

No, I said:

I'm for long sentences

It's not an either/or.  I don't want goverment lying to people who are suspects in criminal investigations and I don't want goverment lying to people about why we "have to" intervene in another country's conflicts.


One Don_G on the board is enough.



You support criminals, not liberty.  Don
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #65 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 8:21am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:54pm:
You support criminals, not liberty.  Don
It sounds to me as if burnsred is supporting Liberty and in favor of honest government (at all levels) that serves the ends we create it for. I agree with him.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1395
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #66 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 9:28am
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:29pm:
Like Jeff you can't address how lying to an innocent person gets them convicted of a crime.  And like Jeff, screw the public, you want to let criminals off to go commit more crimes.
As any lawyer will tell you, you are guilty of some crime and a clever cop can figure it out.   They're investigating a robbery and find out that you broke some law you weren't even aware of because they said, "we have all the evidence we need to convict, so just admit it" or they've kept you in  small room for four hours while telling you "an innocent man wouldn't need a lawyer" the 4 hours in they say "Bob just confessed and boy did he through you under the bus" so the innocent man is tired and hungry and confused so he admits to some lesser crime to make the cops leave him alone.  The real problem is false confessions more than lying but lying can easily elicit false confessions.

Personally, I don't have a problem with all lies a cop might tell a suspect, mostly just with lies regarding the suspects rights.  I'd just require all interrogations be filmed, provided to the defense, and allowed as evidence. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #67 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 10:42am
Print Post  
Quote:
As any lawyer will tell you, you are guilty of some crime and a clever cop can figure it out.   
Sure.  If you aren't willing to give up on any idea of having rights when approached by a police officer, they may well find some reason to arrest you.  "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride" is the mindset of too many of them.  And why not?  If they arrest a citizen and it turns out the arrest was illegal what happens to them?  Usually nothing at all.  In rare cases a suspension.  Maybe if the arrestee is sympathetic enough and you're caught on a viral video, like the nurse-arresting detective in Utah, you get fired.  If a non-government person approached a random pedestrian and demanded ID and then bound him, put him in the back of his car and drove him to a cage, that non-government person would do time.

The "everybody's guilty of something" is even worse in business.  There appears to be signs of intelligent design in the regulations.  I don't believe that it's an accident that almost every business regulation that requires an owner to do something has a counterpart in another code that forbids the owner from doing it. 

You're guilty the moment you open a business.  Especially with vague laws such as anti-trust legislation and the possibility of being sued for imaginary torts.  Don't want a blind person to work in your chemical plant?  You'll get a crippling fine for violating the ADA.  Hire a blind person to work in your chemical plant.  Sooner or later, you'll be sued for doing such a negligent thing.  Either way, the statist media will paint you as an evil-doer.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #68 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:37am
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 9:28am:
As any lawyer will tell you, you are guilty of some crime and a clever cop can figure it out.   They're investigating a robbery and find out that you broke some law you weren't even aware of because they said, "we have all the evidence we need to convict, so just admit it" or they've kept you in  small room for four hours while telling you "an innocent man wouldn't need a lawyer" the 4 hours in they say "Bob just confessed and boy did he through you under the bus" so the innocent man is tired and hungry and confused so he admits to some lesser crime to make the cops leave him alone.  The real problem is false confessions more than lying but lying can easily elicit false confessions.

Personally, I don't have a problem with all lies a cop might tell a suspect, mostly just with lies regarding the suspects rights.  I'd just require all interrogations be filmed, provided to the defense, and allowed as evidence. 


You and burnsred are describing the game of prisoner's dilemma so you may want to read something about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

There's nothing wrong about it. The complaints you're making are against a justice system that has become corrupt.

Note that burnsred is for longer sentences. That's libertarian? It's more likely that a real libertarian would be for shorter sentences after rehabilitation! That would save billions in taxes. But alas, it would deprive the private prison system of business.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1395
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #69 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:23pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:37am:
You and burnsred are describing the game of prisoner's dilemma so you may want to read something about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

There's nothing wrong about it. The complaints you're making are against a justice system that has become corrupt.

Note that burnsred is for longer sentences. That's libertarian? It's more likely that a real libertarian would be for shorter sentences after rehabilitation! That would save billions in taxes. But alas, it would deprive the private prison system of business.
The private prison system is a fraction of the prison industrial complex in the US.  Government operated prisons are 90% of system and its the prison guard unions that care about maintaining those jobs.  But other than that, I agree, I'm for rehabilitation and reduction of recidivism where ever and when ever possible over punitive justice.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 17
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy