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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is (Read 1753 times)
burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #70 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:42pm
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I'm for rehabilitation and reduction of recidivism where ever and when ever possible over punitive justice.
I agree so long as by "when ever possible" we mean that we've taken steps to ensure that a violent offender will not commit further violent acts after having been released from a short sentence.

I've never heard of a rehabilitation program that can make that promise but as soon as we have one, short sentences will be fine.  Until then, long sentences are the best way to protect people from non-governmental initiators of aggression.

Keep in mind that in a libertarian system, the prisons will be humane and they will be far less crowded since their will be no drug offenders, no prostitutes, no gamblers and no one serving hard time for using the wrong pronoun.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #71 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:53pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:23pm:
The private prison system is a fraction of the prison industrial complex in the US.  Government operated prisons are 90% of system and its the prison guard unions that care about maintaining those jobs.  But other than that, I agree, I'm for rehabilitation and reduction of recidivism where ever and when ever possible over punitive justice.


I'll accept your 10% figure because you don't lie about something you could get caught up on. Also, no doubt prison guards with unions care about maintaining their jobs. So it sounds like you've placed the blame on the guards and their unions. Too bad, that avoids facing the main issue.

Very refreshing though to hear you say you're for rehad. This is going against the grain of the pseudo-libertarians on this board. But the response will likely be very muted because they don't have just me to start yapping at.

I would suggest that the guards and their unions have little control over stopping any initiative that would start concentrating more on rehad. Fully understanding that recidivism is encouraged by bad cops in the prison system.

Anyway never mind, it's getting that way in Canada too because the conservative far right wants to punish prisoners more and more and then make it necessary to lock them up for life.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #72 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 2:26pm
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You made me look it up anyway.  Its actually 8% as of 2015.

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Since 1999 – the first year BJS began collecting data on private prisons – inmates in privately run facilities have made up a small share of all U.S. prisoners. In 2015, just 8% of the nearly 1.53 million state and federal prisoners in the U.S. were in private facilities, up slightly from 5% in 1999.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-prison-population-ha...

Regardless, private prison operators and public prison employees have the same incentives, to grow prison populations.  I'm most familiar with the CA prison guards who spend a great deal on political campaigns directly and by funding "Victim's rights" groups.  They spent big on mandatory sentencing and CA's 3 strikes laws.   Aside from that, no politician ever got in trouble for being hard on crime.   This is fed by US news coverage that now spends more time reporting on crime than it did when crime was at its peak 20 years ago.

Similar to the gun control debate.  Crime reached a peak world wide in the late 90s, its been decreasing world wide since then and anyone who wants to can find a correlation between there favored policy and the reduced rate.   It really does look like mass incarceration reduced crime but it also looks like margerine consumption causes divorces.

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #73 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 4:22pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 10:42am:
Sure.  If you aren't willing to give up on any idea of having rights when approached by a police officer, they may well find some reason to arrest you.  "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride" is the mindset of too many of them.  And why not?  If they arrest a citizen and it turns out the arrest was illegal what happens to them?  Usually nothing at all.  In rare cases a suspension.  Maybe if the arrestee is sympathetic enough and you're caught on a viral video, like the nurse-arresting detective in Utah, you get fired.  If a non-government person approached a random pedestrian and demanded ID and then bound him, put him in the back of his car and drove him to a cage, that non-government person would do time.

The "everybody's guilty of something" is even worse in business.  There appears to be signs of intelligent design in the regulations.  I don't believe that it's an accident that almost every business regulation that requires an owner to do something has a counterpart in another code that forbids the owner from doing it. 

You're guilty the moment you open a business.  Especially with vague laws such as anti-trust legislation and the possibility of being sued for imaginary torts.  Don't want a blind person to work in your chemical plant?  You'll get a crippling fine for violating the ADA.  Hire a blind person to work in your chemical plant.  Sooner or later, you'll be sued for doing such a negligent thing.  Either way, the statist media will paint you as an evil-doer.

I believe that it's all part of a design also, including convincing Police that "they are the law" and are immune from prosecution for breaking laws.

Destroying "capitalism" is an obvious goal of our government and "regulating" it to death is a policy proven to work.

No, Trump didn't drain the swamp... My thought was always that he would make deals with them. That's all he ever did in his private life, why would he stop?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #74 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 5:04pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
I agree so long as by "when ever possible" we mean that we've taken steps to ensure that a violent offender will not commit further violent acts after having been released from a short sentence.

I've never heard of a rehabilitation program that can make that promise but as soon as we have one, short sentences will be fine.  Until then, long sentences are the best way to protect people from non-governmental initiators of aggression.

Keep in mind that in a libertarian system, the prisons will be humane and they will be far less crowded since their will be no drug offenders, no prostitutes, no gamblers and no one serving hard time for using the wrong pronoun.
Agreed.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #75 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 6:56pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:42pm:
I agree so long as by "when ever possible" we mean that we've taken steps to ensure that a violent offender will not commit further violent acts after having been released from a short sentence.



That can't be guaranteed so it can't be agreed to either. So you'll have to continue to pay high taxes for high rates of incarceration, high rates of recidivism, and long prison sentences with little chance of rehabilitation. All the benefits of the rightist attitude.

At least until libertarians get tired of paying taxes and start looking at ways to reduce them.

Don't get me started on the statistics, you wouldn't like to hear all about it.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #76 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:26pm
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Regardless, private prison operators and public prison employees have the same incentives, to grow prison populations.  I'm most familiar with the CA prison guards who spend a great deal on political campaigns directly and by funding "Victim's rights" groups.  They spent big on mandatory sentencing and CA's 3 strikes laws.   Aside from that, no politician ever got in trouble for being hard on crime.   This is fed by US news coverage that now spends more time reporting on crime than it did when crime was at its peak 20 years ago.
Until we figure out a way to truly rehabilitate violent criminals, long prison sentences are the only humane way to keep us from being raped, murdered and robbed.  The prisons should be humane, not places of punishment, because just being in a prison is punishment enough.  Rather they should be places to warehouse people who insist on a right to initiate force against  free individuals until they no longer have that urge.

Drug users/sellers, prostitutes, gamblers, and other non-violent, non victim "criminals" can be dealt with simply by repealing laws against crimes with no victims.  Shoplifters, con artists, counterfeiters and other non-violent criminals who do victimize people may be more salvageable. 

A government that releases violent thugs to prey on us again is no better than a government that is itself the predator.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #77 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:04pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 10:26pm:
Until we figure out a way to truly rehabilitate violent criminals, long prison sentences are the only humane way to keep us from being raped, murdered and robbed.  The prisons should be humane, not places of punishment, because just being in a prison is punishment enough.  Rather they should be places to warehouse people who insist on a right to initiate force against  free individuals until they no longer have that urge.

Drug users/sellers, prostitutes, gamblers, and other non-violent, non victim "criminals" can be dealt with simply by repealing laws against crimes with no victims.  Shoplifters, con artists, counterfeiters and other non-violent criminals who do victimize people may be more salvageable. 

A government that releases violent thugs to prey on us again is no better than a government that is itself the predator.

You're totally off base with your thinking burnsred. You are even saying that rehabilitation doesn't work because it hasn't been perfected.

In actual fact, rehailitation isn't even attempted in US prisons and so the recidivism rate is much higher in the US. So not only don't you understand the problem you're putting the cart before the horse and advocating making the problem worse.

And worse and worse it will get as long as the rabid Christian right dictates policy.

Where this ties into libertarian ideals and priorities is it causes even more unnecessary taxation.

And that brings more lost souls ust like you to libertarian forums, searching to an alternative to the two corrupt major parties.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #78 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:09pm
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[quote author=7E5554657D3A0 link=1507129994/77#77 date=1507950279]
You're totally off base with your thinking burnsred. You are even saying that rehabilitation doesn't work because it hasn't been perfected. The rest of the world has proven otherewise.

In actual fact, rehailitation isn't even attempted in US prisons and so the recidivism rate is much higher in the US. So not only don't you understand the problem you're putting the cart before the horse and advocating making the problem worse.

And worse and worse it will get as long as the rabid Christian right dictates policy.

Where this ties into libertarian ideals and priorities is it causes even more unnecessary taxation.

And that brings more lost souls just like you to libertarian forums, searching to an alternative to the two corrupt major parties.

As for your pathetic attempt to pretend to see both sides of the problem, that's just what it sounded like. Pathetic, uninformed Christian dogma of punishment, punishment, punishment.
  
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Re: Ok, HERE's What Libertarian Police Work is
Reply #79 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 9:14am
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Don_G wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 11:04pm:
You're totally off base with your thinking burnsred. You are even saying that rehabilitation doesn't work because it hasn't been perfected.

In actual fact, rehailitation isn't even attempted in US prisons...
I think you are wrong that attempts at rehabilitation aren't made in U.S. prisons.

No matter, where is it done, how is it done and what are the rates of recidivism where it is done?
  
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