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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator" (Read 842 times)
burnsred
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Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Oct 6th, 2017 at 8:28pm
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For purposes of this thread, my assumption is that "our creator" refers to the process of evolution via natural selection.  If you believe that our creator is some other force, natural or supernatural, that is your right.  It wouldn't change the nature of the rights with which our creator has manifestly endowed human beings. 

To see this manifestation of the natural right to self-defense, one need only look at self-defense among the other animals and even among some plants.  Nearly every animal and many plants are endowed by their creator (evolution via natural selection or something else) with an integral means to defend themselves against predators.  Fast legs, sharp claws, wings, tree climbing appendages, protective coloration, shells and other armor, sharp teeth, sharp thorns, sharp horns and other defensive systems are an obvious part of the makeup of many life forms. 

There are almost no animals without some form of built-in defense for an obvious reason:  evolution via natural selection, AKA our creator, would have selected against any such animal so quickly that it would have been unlikely to have survived long enough to even leave behind fossils in enough abundance that we would have found them. 

What natural defense do humans have?  Absent clothes and implements, relative to almost all predatory animals large enough to realistically attack us, we are slow, weak, earthbound, unarmed and unarmored.  Yet, we have survived the filter of natural selection to become the dominant life form on earth.  So dominant that some believe we may eventually destroy the earth.  The way we did this was by using our one natural advantage:  our big brains and developed intelligence.  Our brains have only helped us because we used them to make weapons and then ever more effective weapons.  Therefore we survived and reproduced in great abundance and drove at least one species in our niche to extinction. 

Therefore without the right to bear arms, we would have no right to exist as a species in a world in which the creator of all species is evolution via natural selection (or whatever else).  Since we do exist as a species, we clearly have the right to bear arms and we understand that any attempt to take that right away is an attempt to eliminate us as a species or as individuals.
  
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merkelstan
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #1 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 9:49pm
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The right to bear arms does not stem from the right to self-defense, in my opinion. It derives from the right to own property and be the sole presumptive decider of what to do with that property (unless doing so infringes on the rights of others).

The right to self-defense, in the absence of property rights, would mean you would just have the right to defend youself with your hands, feet and teeth.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #2 - Oct 6th, 2017 at 10:09pm
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Quote:
The right to bear arms does not stem from the right to self-defense, in my opinion. It derives from the right to own property and be the sole presumptive decider of what to do with that property (unless doing so infringes on the rights of others).

The right to self-defense, in the absence of property rights, would mean you would just have the right to defend youself with your hands, feet and teeth.
I think you may have a point, there.  From where do you think that the right to own property comes?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #3 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 9:51am
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merkelstan wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 9:49pm:
The right to bear arms does not stem from the right to self-defense, in my opinion.
The right to own (and therefore defend) property is an elemental Right that is required for survival, just like the Right of self defense. The first people who attached rocks to sticks to make clubs were using technology to increase their effectiveness in defending their lives and property.

When neighboring tribes made clubs too, someone figured out spears...

When barbarians have guns, civilized people need them too.

Edit: There can't be "an absence of property rights." What can be accomplished is that people with enough power can steal your property and deny your right to own property. Abridging and denying Rights does not make them disappear, it merely infringes on their free exercise.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #4 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 10:13am
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So Jeff, would you say that the right to own property includes any property that a person can come into possession of without theft or fraud?  There is no item or substance or device of any kind whose mere possession can legitimately be outlawed in a liberarian system?

Do you see the right to bear arms as stemming from property rights only or do you see a separate right to bearing arms/self-defense that would exist even if somehow the right to own property did not? 

I know that's highly theoretical, but that's what I came to this forum for.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #5 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 10:29am
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burnsred wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 10:13am:
So Jeff, would you say that the right to own property includes any property that a person can come into possession of without theft or fraud?  There is no item or substance or device of any kind whose mere possession can legitimately be outlawed in a liberarian system?

Do you see the right to bear arms as stemming from property rights only or do you see a separate right to bearing arms/self-defense that would exist even if somehow the right to own property did not? 

I know that's highly theoretical, but that's what I came to this forum for.

Yes, on the first question.

I see Rights of self defense and property Rights as part of the broad panoply of Rights that are included in a person's Liberty... There are too many to list and some as yet undiscovered, but the very fundamental Rights like self defense and property are essential to the preservation of one's Liberty.

The only way that property rights can "not exist" is if someone has the power to steal your property and prevent you from owning anything. The right to self defense and the right to be armed in order to defend yourself is necessary to defend property rights.

The Right of self defense includes the Right to defend against all sorts of barbarians, including those who wish to institute tyrannical government.

I thought this article was timely-

https://reason.com/archives/2017/10/06/what-gun-control-advocates-get-wrong?utm_...
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #6 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 12:10pm
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Very few people (including libertarians) understand why we have the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

A couple of days ago, I watched [FOX News] Sean Hannity and a panel of very ignorant "gun experts" go on and on why we need to preserve the right to bear arms.  "We need to defend our homes against an intruder."  "We need to be able to hunt for food."    "We need to be able to go to the range and poke little holes in paper targets."

The real reason the Founders incuded the 2nd Amendment in the BoR is right there in the Amendment itself!  But for some odd reason, most people ignore it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #7 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 5:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 12:10pm:
The real reason the Founders incuded the 2nd Amendment in the BoR is right there in the Amendment itself!  But for some odd reason, most people ignore it.
We need a well regulated Militia to defend our Liberty?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 8:05pm
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Quote:
The real reason the Founders incuded the 2nd Amendment in the BoR is right there in the Amendment itself!  But for some odd reason, most people ignore it.

We need a well regulated Militia to defend our Liberty?
The second says that it is necessary to preserve the state.  Not really a goal that modern libertarians would find highly important.  To preserve a "free state" may have been a need back in the days of the founders, but what free state is left to preserve at this point?  At this point in the United States we have only the freedoms that the government grants us or has not bothered to take away yet.

The second amendment, in hindsight, was poorly written.  The dependent clause "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the preservation of a free state," isn't needed.  My guess is that it was sales language to compromise between those who thought a strong federal government would lead to the erosion of freedom (imagine that) and those who thought the federal government should be stronger and someday might need to start banning arms for private citizens. 

I'm guessing the latter category were folks who knew slaves would have to be freed sooner or later and were shocked at the idea of negroes bearing arms.  That is how the right to bear arms first started coming under attack:  They passed laws against bearing arms knowing full well that they only intended to enforce them against freed slaves.  Later, the government decided that it was much more convenient to simply assume that everyone is a slave.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #9 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 6:03am
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burnsred wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 8:05pm:
The second amendment, in hindsight, was poorly written.  The dependent clause "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the preservation of a free state," isn't needed.
I imagine that was included because they had seen how poorly disorganized militia had performed against the British, and they expected the Militia to defend against any army raised by a would be tyrant.
  
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