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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator" (Read 836 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #10 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 10:11am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 5:39pm:
We need a well regulated Militia to defend our Liberty?

Nailed it!   Smiley We cannot rely on the government to keep a free State - we must do it ourselves. It plainly says so in the Second Amendment.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #11 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 3:53pm
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I imagine that was included because they had seen how poorly disorganized militia had performed against the British, and they expected the Militia to defend against any army raised by a would be tyrant.
Sure, we need the right to form militias since the constitution intended to only allow standing armies for two years at a time, as strange as that may seem in this day and age. 

My point is that the right to bear arms is separate from the right to form militias.  Also, the right to form militias is necessary to the preservation of free individuals as well as a "free state." 

Militias could have been addressed right after the army clause of the constitution. 

I'd love it if we went back to honoring the constitution.  Doesn't mean we can't point out the flaws in that document.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #12 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 4:33pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 3:53pm:
My point is that the right to bear arms is separate from the right to form militias.
I disagree. They are of a piece...

Maybe you are using a different definition of "militia"?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #13 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 4:34pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 3:53pm:
Militias could have been addressed right after the army clause of the constitution. 


What is "the army clause"?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #14 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 6:35pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 6th, 2017 at 8:28pm:
For purposes of this thread, my assumption is that "our creator" refers to the process of evolution via natural selection.  If you believe that our creator is some other force, natural or supernatural, that is your right.  It wouldn't change the nature of the rights with which our creator has manifestly endowed human beings. 

To see this manifestation of the natural right to self-defense, one need only look at self-defense among the other animals and even among some plants.  Nearly every animal and many plants are endowed by their creator (evolution via natural selection or something else) with an integral means to defend themselves against predators.  Fast legs, sharp claws, wings, tree climbing appendages, protective coloration, shells and other armor, sharp teeth, sharp thorns, sharp horns and other defensive systems are an obvious part of the makeup of many life forms. 

There are almost no animals without some form of built-in defense for an obvious reason:  evolution via natural selection, AKA our creator, would have selected against any such animal so quickly that it would have been unlikely to have survived long enough to even leave behind fossils in enough abundance that we would have found them. 

What natural defense do humans have?  Absent clothes and implements, relative to almost all predatory animals large enough to realistically attack us, we are slow, weak, earthbound, unarmed and unarmored.  Yet, we have survived the filter of natural selection to become the dominant life form on earth.  So dominant that some believe we may eventually destroy the earth.  The way we did this was by using our one natural advantage:  our big brains and developed intelligence.  Our brains have only helped us because we used them to make weapons and then ever more effective weapons.  Therefore we survived and reproduced in great abundance and drove at least one species in our niche to extinction. 

Therefore without the right to bear arms, we would have no right to exist as a species in a world in which the creator of all species is evolution via natural selection (or whatever else).  Since we do exist as a species, we clearly have the right to bear arms and we understand that any attempt to take that right away is an attempt to eliminate us as a species or as individuals.

You're up to something dishonest when you use the term 'our creator' to describe natural selection. You see, animals weren't created with self-defense mechanisms. They aquired them through the process of Darwinian evolution..

And I don't think the god is going to be pleased with you saying that you believe in Darwinian evolution! Answer that in the positive and you can dump the 'creator's crap and just go to straignt talk to make your point. Which is?

And besides, I'm told by Americans that Canadians don't have the tight to bear arms and we're doing fine. As is many other nations that Americans would say don't have the right bear arms.

Granted, some get by with arming their bears.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #15 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 6:47pm
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What is "the army clause"?
Posted by: Jeff



    The Congress shall have Power To ...raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years....
    Article I, Section 8, Clause 12



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My point is that the right to bear arms is separate from the right to form militias.
I disagree. They are of a piece...


Maybe you are using a different definition of "militia"?
Maybe.


mi·li·tia
məˈliSHə/
noun
noun: militia; plural noun: militias

        a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
        a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.
        all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.


My definition would be most like the middle one.  Maybe you are using the first one.  But if you mean the first one, that would have nothing at all to do with the second amendment.  That kind of militia would be like the "National Guard" in the U.S. which is entirely subordinate to the federal government in spite of its units being designated according to state and the very, very limited powers that state governors have to call them out.

I've heard many a statist say, "If your state has a National Guard, your rights to a well-maintained militia are not being infringed even if you are not allowed to own a weapon.  It's hard to argue since that's what the second amendment says.  Which is why I say it is poorly written.





  
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #16 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 6:49pm
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You're up to something dishonest when you use the term 'our creator' to describe natural selection. You see, animals weren't created with self-defense mechanisms. They aquired them through the process of Darwinian evolution..
How did they survive long enough to do that?

If natural selection isn't our creator, what is?
  
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #17 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 7:19pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 6:47pm:

    The Congress shall have Power To ...raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years....
    Article I, Section 8, Clause 12



Maybe.


mi·li·tia
məˈliSHə/
noun
noun: militia; plural noun: militias

        a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
        a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.
        all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.


My definition would be most like the middle one.  Maybe you are using the first one.  But if you mean the first one, that would have nothing at all to do with the second amendment.  That kind of militia would be like the "National Guard" in the U.S. which is entirely subordinate to the federal government in spite of its units being designated according to state and the very, very limited powers that state governors have to call them out.

I've heard many a statist say, "If your state has a National Guard, your rights to a well-maintained militia are not being infringed even if you are not allowed to own a weapon.  It's hard to argue since that's what the second amendment says.  Which is why I say it is poorly written.





So any militia that might oppose armies raised by Congress and led by the President are automatically "terrorists"? Would the Texas National Guard be terrorists if they opposed tyranny from DC?
  
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #18 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 7:22pm
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So any militia that might oppose armies raised by Congress and led by the President are automatically "terrorists"? Would the Texas National Guard be terrorists if they opposed tyranny from DC?
The Texas National Guard wears uniforms that say "U.S. ARMY" and the are completely controlled by the federal government so that is highly unlikely.  If that happened, I'm sure they would quickly be labeled as terrorists by the government and by the media.  The definition I said was most like mine said "rebel or terrorist" which of course is an entirely subjective distinction.

  
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Re: Proof Positive that the Right to Bear Arms is "Endowed by Our Creator"
Reply #19 - Oct 8th, 2017 at 7:28pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 8th, 2017 at 6:49pm:
How did they survive long enough to do that?

If natural selection isn't our creator, what is?


There is no creator. You're trying to use the word 'creator' in a dishonest way. It's like you saying your mom 'created' an apple pie. If you want to have a creator then have one. just don't try to foist one on people who don't believe there ever was one.

Why don't you just say that you don't believe Darwinian evolution? There's no shame in it other than you will have a label firmly affixed to you as being a creationist. Half your country still is for dog's sake!
  
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