Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees (Read 242 times)
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Oct 7th, 2017 at 10:03am
Print Post  
Let me say that I and all four of my sons served in the military as a way to pay for college, to see the world and to take a break from the books to increase their maturity.  Now my college-aged daughter is suddenly contemplating being a reservist after having expressed complete disinterest in the military.  One of my sons is majoring in Criminal Justice and will likely be in law enforcement this time next year.  Yes, I'm very, very proud of them. 

But I worry that we've allowed such  pride to color our judgement about the foreign interventions that we send then to.  We also allow it to excuse law enforcement officers who violate the rights they swore an oath to protect.  I was just as guilty for a long time. 

I used to say to people who were against our involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq but would say that they support the troops that, "the only way to support the troops is to cheer them to victory."  I still don't believe that many of the people who vocally opposed the post-9/11 wars were simply anti-Bush, not anti-war.  But they were right even if their reasons were wrong.   I used to say that people were racist for saying that wee can't force democracy on people who don't want it.  Now, it is plain that many in the middle east don't know or care to know the benefits of democracy and liberty.  They don't hate us for our liberties, they hate us because we are not Muslim.  Sending armies of non-muslims onto their soil isn't going to stop them from wanting to blow us up.  I used to say that police have a tough job and a good citizen complies with requests instead of citing technicalities to avoid cooperation.

Obviously, it takes courage to be armed in anticipation of being attacked by a person who is likely to be just as heavily armed.  It also takes courage to deliver mail when completely unarmed knowing those same criminals will be around whether one is armed or not.  It takes a hell of a lot of courage to manage a convenience store at 2:15 AM knowing that the bars have just closed and that the store's owner doesn't allow you to have a gun.

It takes courage to get out of bed and go out into the cold hard world every day.  So we're all heroes.  Let's not single our armed government heroes out and allow our hero worship to lead  us to support the very foreign interventionism that puts those heroes in danger or to support police officers who violate the rights of citizens who are being just as brave. 


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #1 - Oct 7th, 2017 at 5:08pm
Print Post  
How many Generals have been elected President?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1395
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #2 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 9:34am
Print Post  
Washington, Jackson, Grant, Eisenhower.....Can't think of anymore off hand.   Lots of folks who did short times in the military.  Bush 1, Ford, Carter, Kennedy, Truman, I'm sure a few more.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
stevea
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 992
Location: Ohio
Joined: Jul 24th, 2011
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #3 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 10:14am
Print Post  
Yeah ... well ... I don't intend to be the language police, but I really hate it when ppl abuse the term "hero".  The term originally referred to mythological gods of war.  It's really watering it down to apply it to the average soldier much less the average working person.

Yes being a first responded, for example,  is dangerous job, but in realty farming is more hazardous.   It's simply not what  the term 'hero' was meant to convey.

Yes, this worship and fawning over non-heroes leads to some bad ideas.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1395
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #4 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 11:26am
Print Post  
These days, hero refers to victims of crime not even folks that are proactive.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #5 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 12:56pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Oct 7th, 2017 at 10:03am:
Let me say that I and all four of my sons served in the military as a way to pay for college, to see the world and to take a break from the books to increase their maturity.  Now my college-aged daughter is suddenly contemplating being a reservist after having expressed complete disinterest in the military.  One of my sons is majoring in Criminal Justice and will likely be in law enforcement this time next year.  Yes, I'm very, very proud of them. 


Very interesting burnsred. It tells us quite a bit about your personality. At least for those who are capable of reading and understanding. So that paragraph gets your message across that you compromised your weak principles and showed your children that it was o.k. to do the same. Quite acceptable for American men in any case but I have to question the mindset for a woman. I think you might be trying to say likewise.

Quote:
But I worry that we've allowed such  pride to color our judgement about the foreign interventions that we send then to.  We also allow it to excuse law enforcement officers who violate the rights they swore an oath to protect.  I was just as guilty for a long time. [quote]

Yes, that clinches what I've said above. 

[quote]I used to say to people who were against our involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq but would say that they support the troops that, "the only way to support the troops is to cheer them to victory."  I still don't believe that many of the people who vocally opposed the post-9/11 wars were simply anti-Bush, not anti-war.  But they were right even if their reasons were wrong.   I used to say that people were racist for saying that wee can't force democracy on people who don't want it.  Now, it is plain that many in the middle east don't know or care to know the benefits of democracy and liberty.  They don't hate us for our liberties, they hate us because we are not Muslim.  Sending armies of non-muslims onto their soil isn't going to stop them from wanting to blow us up.  I used to say that police have a tough job and a good citizen complies with requests instead of citing technicalities to avoid cooperation.


An explanation as good as it can get for an American I think. It could have been said a lot simpler if you had just let down your guard and said that  Muslims are seeking revenge.

Quote:
Obviously, it takes courage to be armed in anticipation of being attacked by a person who is likely to be just as heavily armed.  It also takes courage to deliver mail when completely unarmed knowing those same criminals will be around whether one is armed or not.  It takes a hell of a lot of courage to manage a convenience store at 2:15 AM knowing that the bars have just closed and that the store's owner doesn't allow you to have a gun.


Quite the mixed message burnsred. But you finally got to the point of guns. I can tell you that it takes considerably less courage to work in an all-night convenience store in Canada and the worker has no ambition to have a gun.

Quote:
It takes courage to get out of bed and go out into the cold hard world every day.  So we're all heroes.  Let's not single our armed government heroes out and allow our hero worship to lead  us to support the very foreign interventionism that puts those heroes in danger or to support police officers who violate the rights of citizens who are being just as brave.


Is that your opinion or is it an opinion being expressed by the average American? It seems to me that it doesn't take a lot of courage for a Canadian to get up in the morning and go out into the world. Personally, I don't regard it as a danger at all.

What is it that prompted this outpouring from you? Were you trying to say that it's your daughter's choice? I think you should counsel her to avoid the military completely. You've started to adopt a good attitude and that could likely be passed on to her too. You might have to reveal that you're not all that proud of your compromises.   



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #6 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 1:01pm
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 11:26am:
These days, hero refers to victims of crime not even folks that are proactive.


The issue he raises isn't something new. It's just that it's been sold so thoroughly by war propagandists that only maturity brings an understanding and an ability to speak out against it. It will go largely unheard.

The storm is gathering. Visit RTnews every day to find the latest from Russia's POV. Then look for the US spin on the same story and make an informed choice.

I think that burnsred understands what is happening too and is trying to find a way of expressing it. I think you are worth trying to convince too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #7 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 6:40pm
Print Post  
ahhell wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 9:34am:
Washington, Jackson, Grant, Eisenhower.....Can't think of anymore off hand.   
Taylor. White Murderer Harrison.
Pierce, Andrew Johnson, Hayes...

Kennedy didn't get elected because he was a military hero. Nor did Bush or Jimmy Carter... What are you thinking?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #8 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 6:44pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 6:40pm:
Taylor.

Kennedy didn't get elected because he was a military hero. Nor did Bush or Jimmy Carter... What are you thinking?


Yes, Kennedy did. It's the most important factor for a candidate. As is not being a Christian the most important thing to hide.

As Dawkins says, the US disqualifies the brightest from holding political office. A clue for libertarians to zero in on! All you have to do is find a real one who is bright!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Reply #9 - Oct 9th, 2017 at 6:46pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Oct 9th, 2017 at 6:44pm:
Yes, Kennedy did. It's the most important factor for a candidate.
Bullshit. Ignorant nonsense.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › We Often Overdo Making Heroes of Armed Government Employees
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy