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burnsred
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Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:02pm
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Sure can!

All it has to do is offer services on a fee-for-services basis.  Those who want services that only the government can provide or that government is best at providing will pay for those services and those who don't need services offered by government or who think other entities provide them better will not pay for them.  This solution should appeal to both libertarians AND to those who think that everything government is doing now is essential and that the government and the government only is able to provide those services.

For example, police and fire.  We all need those services, right?  So simply charge people a fee for having access to those services.  Will people pay if they aren't forced to at gunpoint?  Of course, they will!

These fees will most likely be collected by neighborhood associations of some kind who will have a vested interest in maintaining the value of their homes by maintaining essential services.  Apartment owners will definitely want to keep both their property and their tenants protected.   Most small businesses operate out of leased property and again, the property owner will want protection.  Large corporations are already hiring off-duty officers to supplement their own formidable uniformed and non-uniformed loss prevention departments.  Corporations are known to be highly socially responsible so they might even kick in a few more dollars so that people who legitimately cannot afford protection can have it.  In fact anyone who uses the words "socially responsible" and judges those who they claim fall short of that lofty principle will of course voluntarily provide financial support to police and fire.

I use fire and police as my first examples only because those are the statist's go-to example of government's essential nature when libertarians complain about our nanny/welfare state.  But I challenge any statist on here or any libertarian who believes that we have to have "some" taxes to name a function that cannot be performed on a fee-for-service basis.

 



  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #1 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:51pm
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To maintain a minimal government and a Military force to protect our Nation against foreign aggression requires some form of taxation.  It can be tariffs, it can be indirect (sales) taxes.  Or property taxes. Or maybe some reasonable combination of these.

But we don't need INCOME TAXES.  Income Tax was invented by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels - authors of the Communist manifesto and haters of capitalism/ self-ownership.

They were authoritarian/statists who wanted government to control everything.

Woodrow Wilson embraced this Marxist ideology and signed the 16th Amendment which gave the government the power to steal personal wealth for making war and re-distribution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #2 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 7:41am
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Legal taxation to fund the essential parts of a government designed to protect our lives and Liberty and property is not theft. Characterizing it as such is irresponsible and ignorant.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #3 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 7:55am
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Legal taxation to fund the essential parts of a government designed to protect our lives and Liberty and property is not theft. Characterizing it as such is irresponsible and ignorant.
Am I on the right board?  Is this some bizarre parody of a real libertarian forum?

So you support the government's initiation of force against me to take my money as long as it is in order to fund what the government considers "essential?"  How is that different from the Dems and the GOP, again?

Can you answer my challenge and name an example of a government service that cannot be funded by fees for service?

  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #4 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 10:46am
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 7:55am:
Am I on the right board?  Is this some bizarre parody of a real libertarian forum?
There are Cartoon Men who participate, and there is lots of talk about the benefits of "social responsibility"... Answer your own question.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #5 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 10:51am
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 7:55am:
So you support the government's initiation of force against me to take my money as long as it is in order to fund what the government considers "essential?"  How is that different from the Dems and the GOP, again?

Can you answer my challenge and name an example of a government service that cannot be funded by fees for service?

I support legal taxation to fund what the people approved when they ratified the Constitution.

That is very different than the unlimited welfare/warfare state that the TwoParties have created out of FDR's perversion of the Constitution.

Make your "challenge" a bit more fair, explain how "fee for service" courts will work, or "fee for service" police and national defense.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #6 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 11:49am
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So you support the government's initiation of force against me to take my money as long as it is in order to fund what the government considers "essential?"  How is that different from the Dems and the GOP, again?

Can you answer my challenge and name an example of a government service that cannot be funded by fees for service?

I support legal taxation to fund what the people approved when they ratified the Constitution.
Ok, fair enough.  That's one end of the libertarian spectrum.

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That is very different than the unlimited welfare/warfare state that the TwoParties have created out of FDR's perversion of the Constitution.
Correct.

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Make your "challenge" a bit more fair, explain how "fee for service" courts will work, or "fee for service" police and national defense.
I already explained for police, see above.

Courts would be funded by those who want the courts to intervene in something.  You want to make use of the government's monopoly on the legitimate use of force?  File a lawsuit, pay court costs.  Not "loser pays" but "Win or lose, the filer pays."  Best kind of tort reform, the courts will clear their dockets in no time once Jane Gimmemine has to pay for filing a million dollar lawsuit because her hundred dollar pantsuit tore at her second cousin's wedding and that caused her "emotional distress."  No more suing big companies as an advanced way of buying a lottery ticket because those tickets will cost you.

National defense can be paid by a voluntary single tax.  Tax only land and only the unimproved value of the land.  That's no more stealing than the ownership of the land is stealing.  No one owns land except by government's claim to have the authority to give it or sell it to private individuals.  A questionable claim at best.

Issue tax stamps to be placed on deeds each year upon payment of the tax.  Don't want to pay?  Fine.  The land is still yours, but government won't lift a finger to help you keep it.  Someone sets up a taco stand in your front yard and you can't call the cops to get rid of them, you may rethink whether paying the tax is worth it.  Shell oil may be able to employ their own private security to keep wildcat drillers off.  If they can (they can and do), why should I pay for police out of my five figure salary to protect the land holdings of millionaires?  Since almost everyone lives, works, shops and enjoys leisure activities on land, costs will be passed on to tenants and consumers so everyone has skin in the game.

But believe me:  If someone offered that we could go back to the pre-whiskey rebellion honoring of the constitution or even the pre-New Deal limited government but I have to give up on the ideal of no theft through taxation, I'd hold my nose and vote for it.  Even knowing that we would soon drift back into government interventionism, it would be nice for my kids to enjoy real freedom.


  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #7 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 12:04pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:02pm:
Sure can!

All it has to do is offer services on a fee-for-services basis.  Those who want services that only the government can provide or that government is best at providing will pay for those services and those who don't need services offered by government or who think other entities provide them better will not pay for them.  This solution should appeal to both libertarians AND to those who think that everything government is doing now is essential and that the government and the government only is able to provide those services.


Taxation by government isn't theft, it's bill collecting for services used by members of society. 

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For example, police and fire.  We all need those services, right?  So simply charge people a fee for having access to those services.  Will people pay if they aren't forced to at gunpoint?  Of course, they will!


For police protection? Of course people won't pay for the service, and the same with fire protection. In the millions and crime of all sorts would run rampant, as the country's infrastructure burned along with the people's houses. I really thought you were going to promote something serious?

  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #8 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 1:01pm
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For police protection? Of course people won't pay for the service,
You may be right, given that police often take two to three hours to respond to an armed home invasion in progress being too busy pulling over state attorneys because they are African-American and have tinted windows.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/us/florida-state-attorney-police-stop.html

or . . .

once police realize that they are to be treated as a service business, not a predatory armed robbery gang, they might start acting in the same socially responsible way that companies have to act in order to profit.

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and the same with fire protection.
Firefighters have a pretty good reputation in the states for responding as quickly as possible.  That is likely because they have no quota of tickets to write to citizens.  I don't see why you say that "of course" they won't pay.  Home owners and apartment owners would no doubt opt in.  Of course any insurance company would require that as a condition of insurance.   But if a citizen did opt out of fire protection, that's his risk to manage, correct? 

I know.  Nanny government has to take care of us cause we too stoopid to take care of ourselves.  

  
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #9 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 1:17pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 1:01pm:
You may be right, given that police often take two to three hours to respond to an armed home invasion in progress being too busy pulling over state attorneys because they are African-American and have tinted windows.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/us/florida-state-attorney-police-stop.html

or . . .

once police realize that they are to be treated as a service business, not a predatory armed robbery gang, they might start acting in the same socially responsible way that companies have to act in order to profit.

Firefighters have a pretty good reputation in the states for responding as quickly as possible.  That is likely because they have no quota of tickets to write to citizens.  I don't see why you say that "of course" they won't pay.  Home owners and apartment owners would no doubt opt in.  Of course any insurance company would require that as a condition of insurance.   But if a citizen did opt out of fire protection, that's his risk to manage, correct? 

I know.  Nanny government has to take care of us cause we too stoopid to take care of ourselves.  



Burnsred, I'm not going to put down your ideas with a barrage of reasonable explanations on why it won't work. I want to hear you expand on your ideas for my own reasons, which you don't have to know right now.

But I'll pick a little hole in the one on firefighters to keep you going. Some homeowners in a comercial building decide to not buy firefighting. Their building goes up in flames and so do adjoining buildings.

Oh wait, they buy fire insurance! That'll save their asses! Except that fire insurance for somebody who doesn't buy firefighting is so expensive that nobody buys it.

The lesson is, insurance works on an experience basis and everybody has to buy in to make it work well. That's why universal health care works and your nonsense can never work.

I'm not dismissing your ideas totally. Just fix it up so it will work so we'll have something more to work with!

Hey, how about forcing everybody to buy firefighting and health care insurance? And why not police protection too.  Like you said, I might be right!
  
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