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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation? (Read 953 times)
Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #10 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 1:36pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 11:49am:
I already explained for police, see above.


People who can afford private security will have some protection...

But no, you just want to charge everyone a fee, just like a tax. Will people who can't afford the fee still get protection?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #11 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:13pm
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Burnsred, I'm not going to put down your ideas with a barrage of reasonable explanations on why it won't work. I want to hear you expand on your ideas for my own reasons, which you don't have to know right now.

But I'll pick a little hole in the one on firefighters to keep you going. Some homeowners in a comercial building decide to not buy firefighting. Their building goes up in flames and so do adjoining buildings.
Do adjoining buildings pay for firefighting services?  If so, then the firefighters will be rushing out to the scene.  If no, then the owners of the adjoining building took their chances as adults.

Your argument is the same old, "if you don't do what I want you to do, you put me in danger" argument that is rarely if ever valid.  Your kid doesn't get vaccinations?  Doesn't affect my kid who does.  Your kid can only infect another kid who doesn't get vaccinations.  You don't have liability insurance for your car?  No problem, I have insurance for uninsured motorist which I would have whether you bought insurance or not. 

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Oh wait, they buy fire insurance! That'll save their asses! Except that fire insurance for somebody who doesn't buy firefighting is so expensive that nobody buys it.

The lesson is, insurance works on an experience basis and everybody has to buy in to make it work well. That's why universal health care works and your nonsense can never work.
The U.S. health care system only works well enough that thousands of Canadians escape to it every year not to mention hundreds of thousands of people from other countries.

Plenty of people don't buy life insurance, flood insurance, vision and dental care insurance, gap insurance, etc.  But it still works for those who do buy it.

The problem with our health insurance is that it covers too much, not too little.  It has driven up health care costs to the point where it is almost impossible to pay for except through insurance.  Thanks to crony capitalism, the insurance corporations are guaranteed unearned wealth for decades to come.

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Hey, how about forcing everybody to buy firefighting and health care insurance? And why not police protection too.  Like you said, I might be right!
My point is let adults be adults and not to initiate force to make anyone buy anything.  Don't want fire protection or fire insurance?  Take your chances, no one else will pay for your losses.  Don't want police protection since they are never there when you need them?  No problem thanks to our 2nd amendment.  Don't want to buy a lotto ticket?  Ok, enough people will buy them to pay out winners with plenty to spare.

Try to get over your urge to control the lives of others.  It's a sickness but there is a cure.

  
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Bickeran
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #12 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 10:51pm:
To maintain a minimal government and a Military force to protect our Nation against foreign aggression requires some form of taxation.


then do burnreds idea he's finally making some sense

only tax the people who agree for military protection and the ones that don't well i hear China likes living organ banks so too bad they didn't pay they get no defense against foreign aggression.

This would just make the government a private court tho which is fine
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #13 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 4:59pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:13pm:
Do adjoining buildings pay for firefighting services?  If so, then the firefighters will be rushing out to the scene.  If no, then the owners of the adjoining building took their chances as adults.


And what if the entire city then burns down and hundreds are trapped and burned to death?

This is your idea of a workable "fee for service" society?

You call that sort of thing "libertarian"?

My firefighters have to come out at my expense to protect my building...

Because you don't have firefighters?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #14 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 4:59pm:
Because you don't have firefighters?
Of course you don't, you're a slumlord who's properties are neglected firetraps...

That costs me a lot of money in insurance and fire protection and lowers the value of my property because I have a slumlord for a neighbor.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #15 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:06pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:13pm:
My point is let adults be adults and not to initiate force to make anyone buy anything.
Will that keep slumlords from destroying the value of my property and costing me a fortune for insurance and fire protection?

And what about the cost of the security men I had to hire to keep from getting burglarized all the time?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #16 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:06pm
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burnsred wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 3:13pm:
Do adjoining buildings pay for firefighting services?  If so, then the firefighters will be rushing out to the scene.  If no, then the owners of the adjoining building took their chances as adults.

Your argument is the same old, "if you don't do what I want you to do, you put me in danger" argument that is rarely if ever valid.  Your kid doesn't get vaccinations?  Doesn't affect my kid who does.  Your kid can only infect another kid who doesn't get vaccinations.  You don't have liability insurance for your car?  No problem, I have insurance for uninsured motorist which I would have whether you bought insurance or not. 

The U.S. health care system only works well enough that thousands of Canadians escape to it every year not to mention hundreds of thousands of people from other countries.

Plenty of people don't buy life insurance, flood insurance, vision and dental care insurance, gap insurance, etc.  But it still works for those who do buy it.

The problem with our health insurance is that it covers too much, not too little.  It has driven up health care costs to the point where it is almost impossible to pay for except through insurance.  Thanks to crony capitalism, the insurance corporations are guaranteed unearned wealth for decades to come.

My point is let adults be adults and not to initiate force to make anyone buy anything.  Don't want fire protection or fire insurance?  Take your chances, no one else will pay for your losses.  Don't want police protection since they are never there when you need them?  No problem thanks to our 2nd amendment.  Don't want to buy a lotto ticket?  Ok, enough people will buy them to pay out winners with plenty to spare.

Try to get over your urge to control the lives of others.  It's a sickness but there is a cure.



None of you ideas are ever going to happen. It's medieval thinking of the sort that was going on in 18th. century England in Dickens' time. Books and movies are made about it today because it was so uncarinig and cruel.

Society, culture, governments have moved on and civilized countries are never going back. Your country will catch up before it ever degenerates to what you are imagining.

We in the other civilized countries of the world can only wonder at the pain, suffering, and death you will see visited on you fellow Americans before you see the light. Take your time!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #17 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:20pm
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Don_G wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 5:06pm:
...and civilized countries are never going back.
What are these civilized countries of which you speak? Haven't all countries now realized that "socially responsible" Feudalism is the wave of the future?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #18 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 6:15pm
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And what if the entire city then burns down and hundreds are trapped and burned to death?

This is your idea of a workable "fee for service" society?

You call that sort of thing "libertarian"?

My firefighters have to come out at my expense to protect my building...

Because you don't have firefighters?
Yes, think how much more responsive they will be when their business model depends on satisfied customers. 

You seem to be measuring my idea against an idealized governmental system.  So buildings don't burn down under our current system or are you saying that they won't once government becomes even more powerful?

I thought you were a libertarian.  Sounds as if you've bought into the "government must provide because the free market never can" mentality.  Or at least you think the government has to take care of the really important stuff but it's ok for the private sector to provide video games and so forth as long as they are tightly regulated? 

I take it you favor single-payer medicine since some people won't have health care if the government doesn't provide it and public transportation only since private cars are death traps?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #19 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 9:12pm
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Society, culture, governments have moved on and civilized countries are never going back. Your country will catch
But if we "catch up" i.e. become like all the other countries, where will our citizens escape to, since the citizens of those other countries escape to the U.S.?

Why, if all other countries are so advanced compared to the U.S. is one of our biggest problems too many people from those other countries insisting on moving here?

  
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