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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation? (Read 954 times)
Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #140 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 7:55pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 5:47pm:
But I have been surrendering [a portion of] the fruits of my labor to the State and Federal governments for 42 years. 

Do I have any legal options to recover those taxes which were collected illegally? 
I won't give legal advice, but I will tell you that technically you do, but in reality you don't.

If you want to get started, ask a lawyer what you will have to do to gain 'standing' to sue over such an issue. They will tell you that you must be able to show you have been harmed, and no Federal Court will accept that you have been harmed by paying income taxes on your wages.

That's Catch-22 Number 1. You have no 'standing' to bring a complaint.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #141 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 12:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 7:55pm:
I won't give legal advice, but I will tell you that technically you do, but in reality you don't.

If you want to get started, ask a lawyer what you will have to do to gain 'standing' to sue over such an issue. They will tell you that you must be able to show you have been harmed, and no Federal Court will accept that you have been harmed by paying income taxes on your wages.

That's Catch-22 Number 1. You have no 'standing' to bring a complaint.


The quick answer is 'NO'!

Stop teasing the idiot. Taxes aren't theft. Taxes are payment of bill he racked up by being a user in the system. You all know how to avoid taxes now because I told you. There's no better answer so stop teasing. It just makes pseudo-libertarians drool.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #142 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:02pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 12:26pm:
The quick answer is 'NO'!


We were talking about taxes in the U.S., specifically taxes on income, something you know nothing about.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #143 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:02pm:
We were talking about taxes in the U.S., specifically taxes on income, something you know nothing about.



Your problem is monkey boy, I know all about it because you all tell me about it and how bad everything is.

Anyway, the quick answer is still, NO!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #144 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:02pm:
We were talking about taxes in the U.S., specifically taxes on income, something you know nothing about.

Poor Don_G.   Pretending to understand things he cannot possibly understand.  A useful idiot, for sure.

So initially, income taxes actually were taxes just on income derived from property, dividends, interest, etc.    When did the IRS deviate from constitutional income tax and begin taxing wages and salaries?

I did some poking around but couldn't really find any reliable answer..  The general theory is that it was FDR.  Thoughts?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #145 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:44pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:09pm:
Poor Don_G.   Pretending to understand things he cannot possibly understand.  A useful idiot, for sure.

So initially, income taxes actually were taxes just on income derived from property, dividends, interest, etc.    When did the IRS deviate from constitutional income tax and begin taxing wages and salaries?

I did some poking around but couldn't really find any reliable answer..  The general theory is that it was FDR.  Thoughts?


As I said: Quote:
Anyway, the quick answer is still, NO!

  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #146 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:50pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:09pm:
Poor Don_G.   Pretending to understand things he cannot possibly understand.  A useful idiot, for sure.

So initially, income taxes actually were taxes just on income derived from property, dividends, interest, etc.    When did the IRS deviate from constitutional income tax and begin taxing wages and salaries?

I did some poking around but couldn't really find any reliable answer..  The general theory is that it was FDR.  Thoughts?
The tax that was invalidated by the S. Ct's. Pollock holding was an unapportioned tax on income, wages and salaries. Congress had not apportioned it because they claimed it was an Indirect tax.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #147 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:50pm:
The tax that was invalidated by the S. Ct's. Pollock holding was an unapportioned tax on income, wages and salaries. Congress had not apportioned it because they claimed it was an Indirect tax.


Aren't you supposed to be telling him how he can avoid taxes monkey boy?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #148 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 3:10pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:58pm:
Aren't you supposed to be telling him how he can avoid taxes monkey boy?

That's not what what he's saying, dummy.  He's referring to Pollock vs Farmers' Loan & Trust Company, (1895), when the US Supreme Court ruled that the unapportioned income taxes on interest, dividends and rents imposed by the Income Tax Act of 1894 were, in effect, direct taxes, and were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

In 1913, that [Pollock vs Farmers] ruling was superceded by the 16th Amendment which allowed taxes on incomes "from whatever source derived, without apportionment."
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #149 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 4:17pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 3:10pm:
That's not what what he's saying, dummy.  He's referring to Pollock vs Farmers' Loan & Trust Company, (1895), when the US Supreme Court ruled that the unapportioned income taxes on interest, dividends and rents imposed by the Income Tax Act of 1894 were, in effect, direct taxes, and were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

In 1913, that [Pollock vs Farmers] ruling was superceded by the 16th Amendment which allowed taxes on incomes "from whatever source derived, without apportionment."
Yes. Tellingly, the case was not about a tax on wages or salaries being Constitutionally Direct, but only about a tax on incomes. The court invalidated the entire tax, not because they were ruling on the issue of an unapportioned tax on wages and salaries, but because they presumed that Congress would not want the entire burden of the tax to fall on wages and salaries.

As a general rule, courts don't expand their holdings beyond the questions brought before them. They aren't authorized to do so.

At least some of the Justices in Pollock thought that the issue of whether a tax on wages and salaries could be levied without apportionment was an issue that should be brought before the Court, and I agree. That is not likely to happen. As I mentioned, it is costly and difficult to gain standing to bring suit on this issue, and doing so can have negative effects on the rest of your life. Even if you manage to gain standing, finding a lawyer to help you will be almost impossible, so you will have to file pro se. The chances that a District Court Judge will do anything other that tell you (without citation or reference) that the issue is "long settled" and that you therefore lose are minuscule, and the chances that a Court of Appeals will do anything other than agree (also without citation or argument) are even less.

There is after all at least a $Trillion in revenue at stake...
  
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