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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation? (Read 956 times)
Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #150 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 7:11pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 3:10pm:
That's not what what he's saying, dummy.  He's referring to Pollock vs Farmers' Loan & Trust Company, (1895), when the US Supreme Court ruled that the unapportioned income taxes on interest, dividends and rents imposed by the Income Tax Act of 1894 were, in effect, direct taxes, and were unconstitutional because they violated the provision that direct taxes be apportioned.

In 1913, that [Pollock vs Farmers] ruling was superceded by the 16th Amendment which allowed taxes on incomes "from whatever source derived, without apportionment."


I couldn't care less what he babbles on about monkey boy. He's an ignorant pseudo-libertarian who nobody agrees with. Especially you.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #151 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 4:17pm:
it is costly and difficult to gain standing to bring suit on this issue, and doing so can have negative effects on the rest of your life. Even if you manage to gain standing, finding a lawyer to help you will be almost impossible, so you will have to file pro se.

The court would likely invoke statute of limitations, too.   I defended myself in traffic court once.  I presented photo evidence that a NO U TURN sign was obscured due to foliage from a city-owned tree.  The Judge conceded that the City was liable for the infraction because they failed to trim the tree.   He dismissed it.   Smiley
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #152 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:46pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:39pm:
The court would likely invoke statute of limitations, too.   I defended myself in traffic court once.  I presented photo evidence that a NO U TURN sign was obscured due to foliage from a city-owned tree.  The Judge conceded that the City was liable for the infraction because they failed to trim the tree.   He dismissed it.   Smiley


Oh no! Sounds like another made up story like the last one where you got caught. How did that go? They gave themselves parking places and excluded you? Then your story fell apart and you decided to run from it.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #153 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:04pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:46pm:
Oh no! Sounds like another made up story...

You're jealous because a libertarian prevailed over the government, and that really sticks in your craw.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #154 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 8:41am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:39pm:
The court would likely invoke statute of limitations, too.
Only if they exist, which I don't know or care. I don't intend to sue the IRS over the Constitutionality of an unapportioned tax on wages and salaries or the lack of uniformity of our current Indirect taxes...

In fact, I couldn't. I have no 'standing'.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #155 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 11:37am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 8:41am:
Only if they exist, which I don't know or care. I don't intend to sue the IRS over the Constitutionality of an unapportioned tax on wages and salaries or the lack of uniformity of our current Indirect taxes...

In fact, I couldn't. I have no 'standing'.

If you paid income tax on your salary or wages, then you have standing.  Every taxpayer has standing. The degree of standing depends on the amount of wealth which was surrendered to the government.

But I admit this is a difference of opinion and there's no legal precedent (afaik).  You think income tax is OK.   I see income tax as the major cause of an out-of-control government. 

People have sued the IRS pro se and won. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2014/09/15/grandfather-beats-irs-in-ta...
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #156 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 12:36pm
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Libertarians taking the ridiculous position that taxation is theft, isn't doing the libertarian cause any favours.

The party just can't continue to exist and grow when extremists are allowed to continue with that kind of nonsense rhetoric.

A more socially responsible position is obviously to find ways to lower taxes that are considered to be unjust and replace them with more just taxation. That takes people who are socially conscious of politics that can be acceptable to the masses.

This isn't rocket science! We libertarians who want to see progress must change to reflect some sense of sanity!
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #157 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 12:56pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 12:36pm:
Libertarians taking the ridiculous position that taxation is theft, isn't doing the libertarian cause any favours.
That's like saying that American lefties taking the stance ridiculous position that government should pay welfare to illegals doesn't help their cause.  That is the lefties cause and ending the government theft that is taxation is part of the libertarian cause.

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The party just can't continue to exist and grow when extremists are allowed to continue with that kind of nonsense rhetoric.
How should they be stopped?

Quote:
A more socially responsible position is obviously to find ways to lower taxes that are considered to be unjust and replace them with more just taxation. That takes people who are socially conscious of politics that can be acceptable to the masses.
That's what Reps and Dems have been debating for decades.  It has only caused our tax system to become more confiscatory and more convoluted.

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This isn't rocket science! We libertarians who want to see progress must change to reflect some sense of sanity!
Name ONE plank of the libertarian platform that you believe is "realistic" that wasn't already part of the U.S. liberal platform.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #158 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:00pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 12:56pm:
That's like saying that American lefties taking the stance ridiculous position that government should pay welfare to illegals doesn't help their cause.  That is the lefties cause and ending the government theft that is taxation is part of the libertarian cause.


You'll have to rewrite that so I can make some sense out of it. Lefties cause? illegals' cause? Who can't help? Seriously, I'm not avoiding answering.

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How should they be stopped?


They will be stopped when others promote rational alternatives to their impossilbe ideas. It's not working their way and it doesn't show any promise of ever working. There are logical alternatives that 'will' work!

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That's what Reps and Dems have been debating for decades.  It has only caused our tax system to become more confiscatory and more convoluted.


What can I say? The process has been corrupted? How about saying that the mindset of the American people is so controlled by the 1or 2%, that out of the box thinking has become impossible.

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Name ONE plank of the libertarian platform that you believe is "realistic" that wasn't already part of the U.S. liberal platform.


Smaller government.
or
responsible taxation leading to lower taxes.
or
Any part of the libertarian agenda if it's confined to reason.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Government Exist Without Theft by Taxation?
Reply #159 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 3:26pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 11:37am:
If you paid income tax on your salary or wages, then you have standing.  Every taxpayer has standing. The degree of standing depends on the amount of wealth which was surrendered to the government.

But I admit this is a difference of opinion and there's no legal precedent (afaik).  You think income tax is OK.   I see income tax as the major cause of an out-of-control government. 

People have sued the IRS pro se and won. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2014/09/15/grandfather-beats-irs-in-ta...

To have standing, you have to have been harmed, and the courts will not accept that payment of taxes is harm.

The precedent is long and well established.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/standing

What I keep telling you I oppose as illegal are taxes on wages and salaries that are not apportioned, but yes, that and the power of the Fed, joined with an interpretation of the Constitution that views the general welfare clause and the commerce clause as grants of general power to Congress have given us unlimited out of control government.

Yes, you can win against the IRS without a lawyer if you have a case against them like the Grampa in the case you cited had. Notice that he was not suing on a Constitutional issue.
  
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