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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion (Read 147 times)
Tom Palven
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #10 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 2:45am
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Here is a foreign policy podcast from Jacksonville FL leftist labor union organizers David Schneider and Dustin Ponder that seem identical to the views of right-winger Ron Paul, but are spoken more forcefully:
https://wphpodcast.com/2017/07/09/the-apocalypse-now-episode/
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #11 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:20pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 3:53pm:
BobK, the problem as I see it is that the US doesn't have a left in government and so no reform can possibly come from the left and be favourable to middle class and less wealthy people

That's evidenced in hearing even poor people promoting the right and the American way. That is, support the ideas of the right because some day you will be one of them.

It's an entire headspace of the average American who considers it treasonous to resist such indoctrination.

Perhaps it's hard to see from within America. I guarantee you it's crystal clear from without.


'Les Trentes Glorieuses' ('30 Glorious Years') after the war saw all Western countries pursuing social-democratic policies (assuming that is what you mean by the left.)  From about 1980 on, all of them retreated from these policies because they had issued too much money and debt, and had no room left to raise taxes further.

The problem with considering food, health care, etc. as human rights is that these are 'positive' rights.  As such, someone has to perform some work to bring them about.  So, the flip-side of entitlement is coercion, by necessity.  This is as opposed to 'negative' rights like political freedom, where the state only has to refrain from doing some things, to realize the rights.

The problem of positive rights is the same in all countries, although Americans might be more acutely aware of the problem.  Probably unlike you, I see this as a strength -- the only problem being, of course, the international banking elites having allied with America to make it a global empire, where the 'free' power and wealth from the imperial system will slowly but surely destroy the country.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #12 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:53pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:20pm:
'Les Trentes Glorieuses' ('30 Glorious Years') after the war saw all Western countries pursuing social-democratic policies (assuming that is what you mean by the left.)  From about 1980 on, all of them retreated from these policies because they had issued too much money and debt, and had no room left to raise taxes further.


Whoa Bob! Not all of them issued too much money and debt. And I would like to question you on how it can be that there isn't room to raise taxes? Some European countries are paying higher taxes than the US and are still noted to be the most happy countries in the world.

The problem with considering food, health care, etc. as human rights is that these are 'positive' rights. [/quote]

Yes!

Quote:
  As such, someone has to perform some work to bring them about.


Yes!

Quote:
  So, the flip-side of entitlement is coercion, by necessity.


By coersion you must mean collecting taxes from the producers to pay the necessities of life for the non-producers. So yes, that's a logical conclusion to come to, but is it really logical in practice to adhere to that basic principle. If it's made to work exceptionally well for many years and shows no indication of it collapsing, then shouldn't it be adopted as a superior system? I'm going to hint at some sort of control over the extent that people will want to freeload off of the system. That is working in some European countries and in Canada but isn't working in the US. I'm hinting at a full discussion on 'socially responsible government' Bob, as opposed to the American approach of starving the poor and middle class into submission to the top heavy system.

Quote:
  This is as opposed to 'negative' rights like political freedom, where the state only has to refrain from doing some things, to realize the rights.


I think the positive rights are much more important for the survival of the citizenry and I think that when they have the necessities of life, the political freedom will be possible too.

Quote:
The problem of positive rights is the same in all countries, although Americans might be more acutely aware of the problem.  Probably unlike you, I see this as a strength -- the only problem being, of course, the international banking elites having allied with America to make it a global empire, where the 'free' power and wealth from the imperial system will slowly but surely destroy the country.


I neither have to agree or disagree with your analysis of the cause to know that your country is nearing your endpoint and is much closer to that than is Canada. I credit that to 'social' responsibility in government.

For example, even though our health care system has never come close to being in danger, every time we lean right in government, it comes a little closer to being in danger. And every time we turn left and elect a Liberal government, our health care system is again strengthened with more and better funding, and it becomes a little more secure.

But universal health care need not be used as the example. Any social program is just as applicable.

What I'm saying really is that the US hasn't given social responsible government a chance. Not even the Dems were even proposing something close to that. Your country is more rights than any other first world country. I would suggest that's why you are in such a mess. Assuming that you acknowledge you 'are' in a mess.

Nobody else on this forum is even close to being ready to consider my ideas. I hope you are at least interested in the discussion for a start.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #13 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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And as an addendum to that argument, let's consider the extreme approach to the prison system that Norway is trying to make work. Sure, it puts a very bad taste in American mouths right off the bat. How could that possibly work? How could anyone imagine rewarding criminal in that way?

But it work! And it's rewarding Norway's taxpayers in a big way!

So what would happen if America went just half way in that direction? Would it reward taxpayers half as much?
  
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