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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion (Read 527 times)
Tom Palven
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #10 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 2:45am
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Here is a foreign policy podcast from Jacksonville FL leftist labor union organizers David Schneider and Dustin Ponder that seem identical to the views of right-winger Ron Paul, but are spoken more forcefully:
https://wphpodcast.com/2017/07/09/the-apocalypse-now-episode/
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #11 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:20pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 3:53pm:
BobK, the problem as I see it is that the US doesn't have a left in government and so no reform can possibly come from the left and be favourable to middle class and less wealthy people

That's evidenced in hearing even poor people promoting the right and the American way. That is, support the ideas of the right because some day you will be one of them.

It's an entire headspace of the average American who considers it treasonous to resist such indoctrination.

Perhaps it's hard to see from within America. I guarantee you it's crystal clear from without.


'Les Trentes Glorieuses' ('30 Glorious Years') after the war saw all Western countries pursuing social-democratic policies (assuming that is what you mean by the left.)  From about 1980 on, all of them retreated from these policies because they had issued too much money and debt, and had no room left to raise taxes further.

The problem with considering food, health care, etc. as human rights is that these are 'positive' rights.  As such, someone has to perform some work to bring them about.  So, the flip-side of entitlement is coercion, by necessity.  This is as opposed to 'negative' rights like political freedom, where the state only has to refrain from doing some things, to realize the rights.

The problem of positive rights is the same in all countries, although Americans might be more acutely aware of the problem.  Probably unlike you, I see this as a strength -- the only problem being, of course, the international banking elites having allied with America to make it a global empire, where the 'free' power and wealth from the imperial system will slowly but surely destroy the country.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #12 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:53pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:20pm:
'Les Trentes Glorieuses' ('30 Glorious Years') after the war saw all Western countries pursuing social-democratic policies (assuming that is what you mean by the left.)  From about 1980 on, all of them retreated from these policies because they had issued too much money and debt, and had no room left to raise taxes further.


Whoa Bob! Not all of them issued too much money and debt. And I would like to question you on how it can be that there isn't room to raise taxes? Some European countries are paying higher taxes than the US and are still noted to be the most happy countries in the world.

The problem with considering food, health care, etc. as human rights is that these are 'positive' rights. [/quote]

Yes!

Quote:
  As such, someone has to perform some work to bring them about.


Yes!

Quote:
  So, the flip-side of entitlement is coercion, by necessity.


By coersion you must mean collecting taxes from the producers to pay the necessities of life for the non-producers. So yes, that's a logical conclusion to come to, but is it really logical in practice to adhere to that basic principle. If it's made to work exceptionally well for many years and shows no indication of it collapsing, then shouldn't it be adopted as a superior system? I'm going to hint at some sort of control over the extent that people will want to freeload off of the system. That is working in some European countries and in Canada but isn't working in the US. I'm hinting at a full discussion on 'socially responsible government' Bob, as opposed to the American approach of starving the poor and middle class into submission to the top heavy system.

Quote:
  This is as opposed to 'negative' rights like political freedom, where the state only has to refrain from doing some things, to realize the rights.


I think the positive rights are much more important for the survival of the citizenry and I think that when they have the necessities of life, the political freedom will be possible too.

Quote:
The problem of positive rights is the same in all countries, although Americans might be more acutely aware of the problem.  Probably unlike you, I see this as a strength -- the only problem being, of course, the international banking elites having allied with America to make it a global empire, where the 'free' power and wealth from the imperial system will slowly but surely destroy the country.


I neither have to agree or disagree with your analysis of the cause to know that your country is nearing your endpoint and is much closer to that than is Canada. I credit that to 'social' responsibility in government.

For example, even though our health care system has never come close to being in danger, every time we lean right in government, it comes a little closer to being in danger. And every time we turn left and elect a Liberal government, our health care system is again strengthened with more and better funding, and it becomes a little more secure.

But universal health care need not be used as the example. Any social program is just as applicable.

What I'm saying really is that the US hasn't given social responsible government a chance. Not even the Dems were even proposing something close to that. Your country is more rights than any other first world country. I would suggest that's why you are in such a mess. Assuming that you acknowledge you 'are' in a mess.

Nobody else on this forum is even close to being ready to consider my ideas. I hope you are at least interested in the discussion for a start.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #13 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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And as an addendum to that argument, let's consider the extreme approach to the prison system that Norway is trying to make work. Sure, it puts a very bad taste in American mouths right off the bat. How could that possibly work? How could anyone imagine rewarding criminal in that way?

But it work! And it's rewarding Norway's taxpayers in a big way!

So what would happen if America went just half way in that direction? Would it reward taxpayers half as much?
  
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BobK71
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #14 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 12:38pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:53pm:
Whoa Bob! Not all of them issued too much money and debt.


Sorry for the delay.  I hope to have time to answer the rest of your points later.

The high inflation of the 1970s was a clear sign too much money had been issued in postwar US.  The way the imperial system works is to make sure other countries are (eventually, if not immediately) even more financially leveraged than the US.

West Germany inflated somewhat in the 70s to help the dollar.  In the mid-80s, when savers showed themselves still unconvinced the dollar is the long-term king, the Western powers held a big conference (Plaza-Louvre) and coordinated policies to make sure Western Europe inflated enough to support the dollar.

The system is 'designed', so, in the medium-to-long term, if the US issues too much money and debt, the others will too, so the dollar maintains its chief reserve status.  (In this particular case, all the US had to do was to talk *down* the dollar along with many dollar-bear savers, and exports from Europe would suffer enough to make the Europeans help support the dollar.)
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #15 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 1:02pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 12:38pm:
Sorry for the delay.  I hope to have time to answer the rest of your points later.

The high inflation of the 1970s was a clear sign too much money had been issued in postwar US.  The way the imperial system works is to make sure other countries are (eventually, if not immediately) even more financially leveraged than the US.

West Germany inflated somewhat in the 70s to help the dollar.  In the mid-80s, when savers showed themselves still unconvinced the dollar is the long-term king, the Western powers held a big conference (Plaza-Louvre) and coordinated policies to make sure Western Europe inflated enough to support the dollar.

The system is 'designed', so, in the medium-to-long term, if the US issues too much money and debt, the others will too, so the dollar maintains its chief reserve status.  (In this particular case, all the US had to do was to talk *down* the dollar along with many dollar-bear savers, and exports from Europe would suffer enough to make the Europeans help support the dollar.)


No problem with the delay Bob, there's no rush for serious conversations even amidst all the nonsense. When you get time could you comment on your feellings on whether the US dollar can be sidelined by the Brics, at least in their sphere of influence. And perhaps the consequences.

It appears that China's rise and the cooperation of the country's that form the Brics are going to yield enough money power to break the monopoly.

This is in my opinion the major reason wars are started but our saving grace is of course MAD. And has been since WW2.
  
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kaz
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #16 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 1:04pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 1:02pm:
No problem with the delay Bob, there's no rush for serious conversations even amidst all the nonsense. When you get time could you comment on your feellings on whether the US dollar can be sidelined by the Brics, at least in their sphere of influence. And perhaps the consequences.

It appears that China's rise and the cooperation of the country's that form the Brics are going to yield enough money power to break the monopoly.

This is in my opinion the major reason wars are started but our saving grace is of course MAD. And has been since WW2.


  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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SkyChief
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #17 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 1:36pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 12:38pm:
The high inflation of the 1970s was a clear sign too much money had been issued in postwar US.  The way the imperial system works is to make sure other countries are (eventually, if not immediately) even more financially leveraged than the US.

Do you think it was a mistake for Nixon to end the dollar's convertibility to gold in 1971?  Was this just a part of securing the "imperial system"?
  
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Billie
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #18 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 2:57pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 2:45am:
Here is a foreign policy podcast from Jacksonville FL leftist labor union organizers David Schneider and Dustin Ponder that seem identical to the views of right-winger Ron Paul, but are spoken more forcefully:
https://wphpodcast.com/2017/07/09/the-apocalypse-now-episode/
Ron Paul is a libertarian, the labor union organizers are likely some sort of ignorant Marxists.
  
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Billie
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Re: The Left-Right Divide Is An Illusion
Reply #19 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 3:03pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 1:36pm:
Do you think it was a mistake for Nixon to end the dollar's convertibility to gold in 1971?  Was this just a part of securing the "imperial system"?
It kept what was left of our gold (that our government had already stolen from us and appropriated to itself) from being sent to the rest of the world in exchange for FRNs, so in that way it was necessary, but it was the introduction of FRNs as "legal tender" not convertible into anything that permitted the financing of the "Great Society" and the Vietnam "war".
Had the government not been allowed to print and borrow "money" to finance the "Great Society" and the Vietnam "war", but rather forced to raise taxes to pay for them both, the American people would have rebelled against both.
  
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