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burnsred
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Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Nov 6th, 2017 at 2:49pm
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In fact corporations arguably are government since the government grants corporations privileges not available to ordinary citizens. 

I have no problem with individuals banding together to form a company that is basically a partnership with many partners of varying degrees of buy-in and thus varying degrees of both control and liability.  But when thousands of small stockholders elect officials to run a corporation and neither those officials nor the stockholders are liable for what "the corporation does" it become much more like government, seeking as much power as it can grab while insisting on zero accountability for its actions.

Go ahead with the "but, but , buts."  If you think large organizations cannot be operated by individuals, then we can have corporations as long as we don't give them control over us.  Corporations can be fine if the owners are held accountable.  If ten people own a hundred shares each of a thousand share corporation, they shouldn't be allowed to defraud, overcharge, poison, cheat, rob or steal from their customers and get away with it by claiming "the corporation did it, not me."  If a thousand people own ten shares each of a thousand share company, they should not be allowed to pollute air water and land with no liability because they claim "the corporation did it." 

  
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Jeff
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #1 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 3:22pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 2:49pm:
In fact corporations arguably are government since the government grants corporations privileges not available to ordinary citizens. 

I have no problem with individuals banding together to form a company that is basically a partnership with many partners of varying degrees of buy-in and thus varying degrees of both control and liability.  But when thousands of small stockholders elect officials to run a corporation and neither those officials nor the stockholders are liable for what "the corporation does" it become much more like government, seeking as much power as it can grab while insisting on zero accountability for its actions.

Go ahead with the "but, but , buts."  If you think large organizations cannot be operated by individuals, then we can have corporations as long as we don't give them control over us.  Corporations can be fine if the owners are held accountable.  If ten people own a hundred shares each of a thousand share corporation, they shouldn't be allowed to defraud, overcharge, poison, cheat, rob or steal from their customers and get away with it by claiming "the corporation did it, not me."  If a thousand people own ten shares each of a thousand share company, they should not be allowed to pollute air water and land with no liability because they claim "the corporation did it." 

It's an old argument, going back at least to the 1850s.

The pollution problem used to be handled by the common law of torts (no, not perfectly) but the corporation had to pay for damages it did, and stockholders lost equity value when that happened and usually dumped their stocks.

The issue of owner/stockholder liability is two sided.

Democrats in the 1850's argued for stockholder liability and Whigs argued against it. The Whig argument was essentially that investors don't approve and can't control illegal actions by the corporations officers until after the fact, at which point all they can do is hope to elect a board of directors that will oust the wrongdoers.

A problem I see with stockholder liability is that one of the foundations of our legal system is that you can't be held liable for the illegal acts of others unless you actually hire them to do wrong. I don't think stockholders do that. In fact, stockholders will often sell stock in companies whose officers are caught breaking laws.

Whigs also argued (correctly in my opinion) that people would not invest in corporations if they were going to be held liable for wrongdoing by corporate officers. Democrats thought that was fine because they wanted to keep America undeveloped and poor.


  
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Don_G
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #2 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 3:43pm
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Corporations are bad because the system in which they operate is bad. They aren't permitted to place any emphasis on employees or in growing a corporation for the purpose of it producing as a business and an empoyer of people. It's only purpose is in making money for the shareholers.

US government is as bad or worse for other reasons.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #3 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 4:15pm
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A problem I see with stockholder liability is that one of the foundations of our legal system is that you can't be held liable for the illegal acts of others unless you actually hire them to do wrong. I don't think stockholders do that. In fact, stockholders will often sell stock in companies whose officers are caught breaking laws.
Stockholders hire every employee directly or indirectly just as sole proprietorships do.  They vote for the board of directors who appoints the CEO who hires managers who . . . etc. 

  
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thermf5
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #4 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 4:40pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 2:49pm:
In fact corporations arguably are government since the government grants corporations privileges not available to ordinary citizens. 

I have no problem with individuals banding together to form a company that is basically a partnership with many partners of varying degrees of buy-in and thus varying degrees of both control and liability.  But when thousands of small stockholders elect officials to run a corporation and neither those officials nor the stockholders are liable for what "the corporation does" it become much more like government, seeking as much power as it can grab while insisting on zero accountability for its actions.

Go ahead with the "but, but , buts."  If you think large organizations cannot be operated by individuals, then we can have corporations as long as we don't give them control over us.  Corporations can be fine if the owners are held accountable.  If ten people own a hundred shares each of a thousand share corporation, they shouldn't be allowed to defraud, overcharge, poison, cheat, rob or steal from their customers and get away with it by claiming "the corporation did it, not me."  If a thousand people own ten shares each of a thousand share company, they should not be allowed to pollute air water and land with no liability because they claim "the corporation did it." 


the bigger any orgiztion is the more likey thay are to get messed up this gos with government unions or companeys keeping things small can lessing the bystandered efect that executives and shareholders get i think the co-op modld for bizness is the best modle we have so far
  
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Bickeran
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #5 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 5:47pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 2:49pm:
In fact corporations arguably are government since the government grants corporations privileges not available to ordinary citizens. 


burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 2:49pm:
they shouldn't be allowed to defraud, overcharge, poison, cheat, rob or steal from their customers and get away with it by claiming "the corporation did it, not me."


basically u are statist too bad i had high hopes of you

but just in case there is any left i'll explain

most of the words you are using are weasel words, just used to have an effect

rob means use force yank away a wallet or hold a gun, it does NOT apply to hidden fees, you don't like hidden fees don't sign a contract that allows them or dont do business with peeps who charge them

no they shouldn't be allowed to rob dumbass, and they don't

no they shouldn't be allowed to poison, and they're not
  
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Jeff
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #6 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 7:22pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 3:43pm:
Corporations are bad because the system in which they operate is bad. They aren't permitted to place any emphasis on employees or in growing a corporation for the purpose of it producing as a business and an empoyer of people. It's only purpose is in making money for the shareholers.

Nonsense. Most businesses don't have shareholders, and even the ones that do are free to operate however the choose in order to try to produce products or services that people are willing to pay for. Treating employees well yields real benefits for the entire company. So does working at your job. Businesses are cooperative ventures.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #7 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 7:24pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 7:22pm:
Nonsense. Most businesses don't have shareholders, and even the ones that do are free to operate however the choose in order to try to produce products or services that people are willing to pay for. Treating employees well yields real benefits for the entire company. So does working at your job. Businesses are cooperative ventures.


Well at least you succeeded in letting me know that you don't understand how corporations work. I'm surprised because you're probably old enough to understand how they used to work.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #8 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 7:26pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 4:15pm:
Stockholders hire every employee directly or indirectly just as sole proprietorships do.  They vote for the board of directors who appoints the CEO who hires managers who . . . etc. 

Buying a share of GE stock doesn't make me liable for the CEO or the CFO of GE breaking laws dumbass. Even if I am a majority stockholder, it's the board of directors who hire the officers, and not even the board can prevent the officers from committing crimes, so the board isn't liable either.

If you hire a bookkeeper for your small business, and he turns out to be a serial rapist, he is liable for his crimes, not you.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Corporations are Nearly as Bad as Government
Reply #9 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 7:42pm
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Buying a share of GE stock doesn't make me liable for the CEO or the CFO of GE breaking laws dumbass. Even if I am a majority stockholder, it's the board of directors who hire the officers, and not even the board can prevent the officers from committing crimes, so the board isn't liable either.
That's my point.  That kind of immunity from liability is what makes corporations so likely to be nearly as corrupt as government.


Quote:
If you hire a bookkeeper for your small business, and he turns out to be a serial rapist, he is liable for his crimes, not you.
I am if I know he's a serial rapist and he rapes my customers who interacted with him because he works for me.
  
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