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burnsred
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Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Nov 6th, 2017 at 8:12pm
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Yes, you read right.  Not civil disobedience, civil obedience.  In civil disobedience, individuals or groups deliberately violate laws they consider unfair in order to be arrested so that they can gain sympathetic publicity for their cause.  I'm surprised pot smokers never do this by gathering in large groups and toking up.  But it's a catch 22, I guess.  Hard to get those type guys organized.  It'd be like herding cats.

There are youtubers who go around exercising their rights under the bill of rights and recording police reaction to it.  This is civil obedience because they carefully research and obey all laws while doing it.  Yet they still get harassed, threatened and often arrested.  They carry guns in public, they take pictures in public, they hold political signs in public.  Invariably, someone calls in to complain and police show up.  First couple of videos like that I saw my thoughts were, 'come on dudes.  Leave police alone and get a life.' 

But then I noticed a disturbing sameness to the outcomes of these encounters.  Police would say the same things in different cities and different levels of government.  "In this day and age with all the terrorist attacks, we have to [ask you to forego your constitutional rights and threaten to arrest you if you don't]."

When the youtubers explain to the police that they have a constitutional right to carry arms or speak freely or take pictures and no, they don't have to show ID if they do, the reactions are often irrational and aggressive, exactly what we don't want from heavily armed government officials.  When the "1st/2nd amendment auditors" as they call themselves go to jail, they are invariable released - having broken no laws - and file complaints which go nowhere because of police stonewalling.

We need libertarianism everywhere, but our police systems would be the first place to start.  Police officers are not inherently bad.  In fact, they are often the finest, bravest young men and women you would ever meet.  But government power corrupts them as it always must.



  
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thermf5
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #1 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 9:13pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 8:12pm:
Yes, you read right.  Not civil disobedience, civil obedience.  In civil disobedience, individuals or groups deliberately violate laws they consider unfair in order to be arrested so that they can gain sympathetic publicity for their cause.  I'm surprised pot smokers never do this by gathering in large groups and toking up.  But it's a catch 22, I guess.  Hard to get those type guys organized.  It'd be like herding cats.

There are youtubers who go around exercising their rights under the bill of rights and recording police reaction to it.  This is civil obedience because they carefully research and obey all laws while doing it.  Yet they still get harassed, threatened and often arrested.  They carry guns in public, they take pictures in public, they hold political signs in public.  Invariably, someone calls in to complain and police show up.  First couple of videos like that I saw my thoughts were, 'come on dudes.  Leave police alone and get a life.' 

But then I noticed a disturbing sameness to the outcomes of these encounters.  Police would say the same things in different cities and different levels of government.  "In this day and age with all the terrorist attacks, we have to [ask you to forego your constitutional rights and threaten to arrest you if you don't]."

When the youtubers explain to the police that they have a constitutional right to carry arms or speak freely or take pictures and no, they don't have to show ID if they do, the reactions are often irrational and aggressive, exactly what we don't want from heavily armed government officials.  When the "1st/2nd amendment auditors" as they call themselves go to jail, they are invariable released - having broken no laws - and file complaints which go nowhere because of police stonewalling.

We need libertarianism everywhere, but our police systems would be the first place to start.  Police officers are not inherently bad.  In fact, they are often the finest, bravest young men and women you would ever meet.  But government power corrupts them as it always must.




in any thing that u do for money u have to make comprises or find away around it that is life unless u want freeexprestion to be a human right and for cencership or any one trying to cencer people to be locvked up finded ect there is no way u can stop this unless u have the money to trake this to court or can get a cibal liberties org to back u youtube is gana stay the way its going and its olny gana get worse with time so there are 2 options boycot youtube or buy it off of google
  
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Don_G
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #2 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 1:26pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 8:12pm:
We need libertarianism everywhere, but our police systems would be the first place to start.  Police officers are not inherently bad.  In fact, they are often the finest, bravest young men and women you would ever meet.  But government power corrupts them as it always must.



The 'free market' system gives you what you are willing to pay for. If you buy police protection for $10 an hour then you'll get your $10 worth. And they will likely be easily corruptible if they sell their services (even risk their lives) so cheap. The free market tells us what they are worth. The 'right to work' principle will have worked too!

I think the way pseudo-libertarianism fits into this conversation is in their notion that government has the right to enact 'right to work' laws which strip unions of any power to demand higher wages. Thereby recruiting police officers from the ranks of the unemployed on the streets, as opposed to going to universities and looking to hire graduates with degrees in appropriate fields of law enforcement. They're available for $40 an hour and up!

The police union will have already set the price! 
  
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burnsred
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #3 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 9:47pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
The 'free market' system gives you what you are willing to pay for. If you buy police protection for $10 an hour then you'll get your $10 worth. And they will likely be easily corruptible if they sell their services (even risk their lives) so cheap. The free market tells us what they are worth. The 'right to work' principle will have worked too!

I think the way pseudo-libertarianism fits into this conversation is in their notion that government has the right to enact 'right to work' laws which strip unions of any power to demand higher wages. Thereby recruiting police officers from the ranks of the unemployed on the streets, as opposed to going to universities and looking to hire graduates with degrees in appropriate fields of law enforcement. They're available for $40 an hour and up!

The police union will have already set the price! 
Who in the world would voluntarily pay police officers $40 per hour?

In a libertarian system, the free market would answer that question with perfect accuracy!


  
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Jeff
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #4 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 7:15am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 9:47pm:
Who in the world would voluntarily pay police officers $40 per hour?

In a libertarian system, the free market would answer that question with perfect accuracy!


It probably already has... and their is a wide range of pay rates for private security people.

How much the police are paid in my county depends largely on how much property tax people are willing to pay. The town closest to me disbanded their police force several years ago and started contracting with the County Sheriff's Dept. for police protection because it was cheaper and the people of the town had voted down an increase in property taxes, so the town could not afford to keep their own police.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #5 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:22am
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How much the police are paid in my county depends largely on how much property tax people are willing to pay.
But is that really true in practice though?  Do people actually express how much they think police should be paid through expressing how much their property taxes should be?  Or are each of those things determined by separate though related bureaucracies?   Unless there is a ballot item that says, "Keeping in mind that police salaries will depend on your answer, what percent of taxes should you pay on your residential property?"  or "A proposal to increase residential property taxes from X% to Y% in order to raise police salaries by $X,XXX per year."  I've rarely heard of a ballot measure like that nor a politician running on a promise to raise property taxes to pay for higher police salaries or lower property taxes using money saved by cutting police salaries.  Most voter/taxpayers have no idea how police salaries are determined and even if they knew, they couldn't change it.

The problem with our monster government is that it would be exhausting and often futile to even try to keep up with how they spend the money they take from us by force.  We have seen the sorry spectacle of elected lawmakers being stonewalled by the very agencies on whose funding they vote.  If a bureaucrat isn't respectful of a congressional committee chairman's duty oversee them, what chance does an ordinary taxpayer have against a county clerk who doesn't like FOIA requests?  We're too busy working to pay for government to find out what it's doing and whether it's even helping at all.

You claim that voluntary funding of police wouldn't work because people simply would not pay?  Well, sure no one in their right mind would want to voluntarily pay for the Rube Goldberg systems we have in place now.  Law enforcement would have to streamline and only provide services that people really want and will pay to get.  Then we'd have more efficient government and less theft by government.  No offense to your fellow grand jury members, but that would reduce thievery a lot more than grilling leaf blower swipers.




  
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Don_G
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #6 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:59am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 9:47pm:
Who in the world would voluntarily pay police officers $40 per hour?

In a libertarian system, the free market would answer that question with perfect accuracy!




Actually, our mounties are hired at a little over 53K and within 36 months are making a little over 86K. That's about 40 an hour based on an 8 hour day and 5 day week.


I notice burnsred said: Quote:
Well, sure no one in their right mind would want to voluntarily pay for the Rube Goldberg systems we have in place now.


Your policing is truely notoriously bad with officers shooting and killing people left and right. I'm suggesting that our mounties are much better police officers because we understand we must start with quality people who won't be easily corrupted. We 'do' have a reputation for some of the best policing in the world.

The free market must be allowed to work but what I'm hearing from pseudo-libertarians is that you don't want it to work.

  
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ahhell
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #7 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 12:06pm
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Average hourly pay for cops in the US is roughly $25/hour not 10.  That appears to be starting salary. 

https://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/police-officer-Hourly-Salary-Details.aspx

Government jobs are much more heavily unionized than private sector jobs and they are a big part of the problem with cops in the US.  They do there utmost to stifle accountability for cops. 

  
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #8 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 12:15pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 12:06pm:
Average hourly pay for cops in the US is roughly $25/hour not 10.  That appears to be starting salary. 

https://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/police-officer-Hourly-Salary-Details.aspx

Government jobs are much more heavily unionized than private sector jobs and they are a big part of the problem with cops in the US.  They do there utmost to stifle accountability for cops. 


I think you might be missing some of the critical points burnsred and Jeff are bringing up. In the US they are saying that there's a heavy emphasis to hire private security guards and they are the ones that are working for $10 an hour. The Zimmerman case was an example of those chickens coming home.

Anyway, you seem to have quoted $25/hour for regular police and that's less than $40/hour our mounties get after 36 months.

Check out the facts if you have an interest?

But the point is, you can't interfere with the free market through right to work laws and still expect it to work well.
Americans just put too much emphasis on saving money on taxes in instances where they shouldn't be interfering.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Youtubers Practicing Civil Obedience
Reply #9 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 12:24pm
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Actually, our mounties are hired at a little over 53K and within 36 months are making a little over 86K. That's about 40 an hour based on an 8 hour day and 5 day week.


I notice burnsred said: Quote:
Well, sure no one in their right mind would want to voluntarily pay for the Rube Goldberg systems we have in place now.


Your policing is truely notoriously bad with officers shooting and killing people left and right. I'm suggesting that our mounties are much better police officers because we understand we must start with quality people who won't be easily corrupted. We 'do' have a reputation for some of the best policing in the world.
I'll partly agree with you, Don.  I do believe that Canadian officers understand their role when dealing with citizens better than U.S. officers do.  But I don't know that salaries are what determine that.  Sounds like Mounties make good money but our federal officers make just as much and some local PD's pay more.  Some make much more and they still violate citizen's rights and they still spend their time writing tickets for three miles over the limit instead of catching murderers. 

My theory is that Canadians are natural rule followers while Americans are rebels.  The histories of our countries explains that.  To a Canadian police officer, the rule that a suspect has the right to remain silent is at least as important as the rule the suspect is suspected of breaking.  Our officers should be trained to think the same way instead  of being peer pressured to think their authority extends to law-abiding people doing nothing wrong.

  
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