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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are homeless people libertarians? (Read 406 times)
Don_G
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #30 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:15pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:50am:
If he has evidence?  What happened to innocent until proven guilty?  What happened is that under our current system, that concept is reserved to those who can afford the legal muscle to enforce it. 

I'm not saying justice will be perfect under a system in which those who file lawsuits have to pay the costs.  I'm saying it won't be any less perfect than our current system in which courts are taxpayer-funded collection agencies for lawyers vying to enrich themselves.


You all understand that your system is corrupt and needs to be taken down, but it seems that none of you have any real ideas on how to do it.

Your ideas are more egregiously wrong because you're generally advocating moves further to the right.

Everybody but you is talking around a move to the left and socially responsible government but the pseudo-libertarian crap always gets in the way.

I guess it's to be expected that on a pseudo-libertarian forum like this one, we can't start at point zero. I have to start by being -5 or -6 and bring people back to normalcy.
  
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #31 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 4:46pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
I was hoping someone would say this. I think it's the purest libertarian position.

My question to you would be: What if instead of 1% of Tyrannians being libertarian, it's 0%? What if not one single Tyrannian wants libertarian policy imposed in Tyrannia?


i assume you mean then what if freetons fight anyway. Believe it or not, still right, even terrorism. point is tyran gov't crushes rights, just cause peeps dont WANT they rights don't mean rights not violated

they want to give them up that's fine, but they gotta agree, the tyran peeps did not agree, they just would if they could, they still gotta tho

The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
Then doesn't Tyrannia become 100% voluntary? More rules, above and beyond the NAP, are okay if they're voluntary, right? In this scenario doesn't Tyrannia become one great big Home Owners' Association? And don't libertarians think it's perfectly fine if a Home Owners' Association forms voluntarily, even if it has horrible tyrannical rules, like no clotheslines or no Jews?


u racist thingy but yes, racist thingy can make VOLUNTARY place where there aren't jews allowed

an this is subtle i don't expect a whitey to understand

so here is question: does Tyran gov't say it is gov't or say it is HOA?

The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
Not all white people are dumb. I am white and I am most certainly not dumb.


again racist, either u pretend to be white or you pretend to be smart

The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
I actually fully understand rights being objective, and I fully understand that this is why the Freetonian freedom fighters are justified in blowing stuff up; they're not the initiators of force. The Tyrannian government is.


right

The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
My basic question is about the fact that most people don't want private courts and no government. If some people do want that, I think they should get the chance to live that way, but not at the expense of the people who don't. Gary Johnson got about 3% of the American vote, and I'd bet my gigantic top tenth of a percent of intelligence brain on the fact that if he'd been preaching no government and private courts, it would have been well below 1%. In other words, if he'd been preaching actual libertarianism.

So rights are objective, fine. Furthermore, your exact concept of rights is objectively perfect. I will concede all of that. I'm still wondering how you justify libertarianism everywhere when most people want at least basic rules. In a libertarian system they would form HOAs and adopt those rules, and you want to turn the world upside-down, take away their rules, and force them to readopt them, for less than 1% of the populace.

Wouldn't it make more sense to advocate the creation of a libertarian town, maybe somewhere out in the Midwest?


no

here is what u still don't understand and prolly can't

that 1% has the RIGHT and its ABSOLUTE to live libertaruian, that 99% does not have the RIGHT to live how they want with more rules UNLESS they agree, they gotta agree end of story
  
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #32 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:39am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:08am:
The law that protects freedom of speech stands against the government. The government is prohibited from interfering with individual's rights to speak their mind.

Laws making slander and libel punishable are part of the common law of torts that constrain individuals from causing harm to others.

You fantasy that a tyrannical government will pass laws authorizing slander and libel by negating the common law are unrealistic.


No, it doesn't. You're not even replying to my concern. Free speech laws do have the potential to protect liars and slanderers, and this happens in our society. The show Hard Copy used to do this so badly that The Simpsons satirised it. (Sorry this is in parts.) The creator of the episode even said, in 2005, that the problem had gotten worse. I recommend watching this and taking a look online to see what this episode is really about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Badman




Start at part 3 if you're extremely lazy.

Here's some more links in case that wasn't enough.

http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/defamation-law-the-basics....
Quote:
Our government places a high priority on the public being allowed to speak their mind about elected officials as well as other public figures. People in the public eye get less protection from defamatory statements and face a higher burden when attempting to win a defamation lawsuit.

When an official is criticized in a false and injurious way for something that relates to their behavior in office, the official must prove all of the above elements associated with normal defamation, and must also show that the statement was made with "actual malice."


"Actual malice" being, of course, a meaningless buzzword unless you want to call Psi-Corps, which we conveniently don't have.

http://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/defamation.html
Quote:
Most media organisations avoid making retractions. Sometimes they will defend a defamation case and pay out lots of money rather than openly admit being wrong. Media owners have resisted law reforms that would require retractions of equal prominence to defamatory stories.


So yes, just as I've said, because Americans value free speech so highly, there are liars and slanderers who enjoy government protection. That government protection is the First Amendment.

And I am not saying this is wrong. I am saying it is not beyond comprehension that people destroyed by government-protected lies and slander might want to live somewhere without free speech. And that's exactly why, in libertarianism, communities are allowed to make their own rules as long as it's voluntary.
  

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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #33 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:15am
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Bickeran wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 4:46pm:
i assume you mean then what if freetons fight anyway. Believe it or not, still right, even terrorism. point is tyran gov't crushes rights, just cause peeps dont WANT they rights don't mean rights not violated

they want to give them up that's fine, but they gotta agree, the tyran peeps did not agree, they just would if they could, they still gotta tho

an this is subtle i don't expect a whitey to understand

so here is question: does Tyran gov't say it is gov't or say it is HOA?


I have to think that in the face of an easy way to solve the Freetonian terrorism problem, if they really had the support of all the people (which I do admit is unlikely, but in the context of libertarianism being private courts and no government while everything else is tyranny maybe not so much), the Tyrannian government would just go ahead and turn into a HOA.

Yes, and do reelections if needed. They would call on their people to voluntarily cede portions of all their property to the Tyrannian government so they could keep doing their jobs and shut the Freetonians up at the same time.

Bickeran wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 4:46pm:
u racist thingy

again racist, either u pretend to be white or you pretend to be smart


Not going to argue this. I'm interested in facts. I'm interested in how morality actually works. I'm not going to shy away from saying certain things because they're racist, and honestly these are so many things in modern day that no matter how hard I try, you are going to be able to pick out something that doesn't pass the PC test. I can even show you where PC contradicts if you like, but the truth is I would rather just admit I'm a racist and move on.

And once you actually see how smart I am, you'll be forced to logically declare me not white, so I'm going to go ahead and prepare for that.

I won't be black. This is only because I like my magnificent mane the way it is, and I don't like the smell of straightening products. They make me want to pass out.

So with the four basic types of people, (white yellow brown and black) that basically leaves brown and yellow. I'll be a Hindu, but only if I can be in the caste that farms, or the one that prepares the dead for burial. I will be a Sikh, but I will not be a Muslim or a Jew because I believe Kosher/Halal butchering is immoral. I'm willing to give up beef if I have to, so this is more than reasonable.

I'll be any type of Asian or Pacific Islander. Again, leave the mane, and fine.

I'll also be Native American.

Personally if you make me one of the Indians left over from British colonialism I might find that especially agreeable since I can keep my Britishisms. Again, don't put me in a religion I find barbaric or distasteful and I'm good.

Not talking about blowing stuff up. Entirely agree with Skychief's scenario. In a libertarian context, where aggression is everywhere, it's particularly easy to justify terrorism morally.

I just won't be a part of inhumane butchering practices.

Say it's racist. Fine. It is.

Now tell me I'm actually wrong about Kosher and Halal butchering being inhumane and prepare for vids. You'll puke your guts out.

Bickeran wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 4:46pm:
here is what u still don't understand and prolly can't

that 1% has the RIGHT and its ABSOLUTE to live libertaruian, that 99% does not have the RIGHT to live how they want with more rules UNLESS they agree, they gotta agree end of story


That's harsh, but fair. It's honestly a natural consequence of moral objectivism, without which morality actually can't exist.

I'm wondering though if, Constitutionally, one could argue that people in America have already ceded portions of their property to the government, enough for the government to enforce its laws and taxes.

SkyChief wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 12:35pm:
We could use this model to describe the relationship between US ans ISIS.  The US is the tyrannical aggressor by sending in it's Daleks troops and drones to harass the M.E. caliphates. The US represents the Tyrannian government.

ISIS trains and sends agents to the US to blow stuff up -  in defense of the caliphates. They represent the Freetonian freedom fighters.

So, ISIS is justified in taking US civilian lives, right?


From a libertarian perspective, and if they do not have a gentler means available that will fend off the US aggression, yes, absolutely.

It's like the bird I was talking about before, whose nest has been invaded by the cuckoo egg. She does have the right to defend her property - her nest - and even though the egg is an innocent life, she doesn't have hands. The least violent thing she can do to get rid of the egg is push it out of her nest to drop and crack upon the ground, so she's allowed to do it.

The alternative is that being strapped to a baby protects a non-justified terrorist from any and all retaliation.

So pick one.
  

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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #34 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:38am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:50am:
If he has evidence?  What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


To be honest with you that was never really a thing, except for the very favourites.

I still prefer getting my chance under guilty until proven innocent. In a libertarian system, that's not guaranteed.

I and a lot of others prefer the guarantee of something to the possibility of nothing. Your system is not worse. I'm just saying there are reasons people might not choose it.
  

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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #35 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:39am:
No, it doesn't. You're not even replying to my concern. Free speech laws do have the potential to protect liars and slanderers, and this happens in our society.
You can lie all you want, but when your lies rise to the level of slander and defamation, they are actionable.
  
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #36 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:26am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:39am:
So yes, just as I've said, because Americans value free speech so highly, there are liars and slanderers who enjoy government protection. That government protection is the First Amendment.


No. Slander is actionable. So is defamation of character. So is fraud.

The fact that is often difficult to prove does not mean it is protected by the 1st Amendment.
  
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #37 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:39am:
No, it doesn't. You're not even replying to my concern.


no hes not so ignore his ass, doesnt even understand the question omg why do peeps on this forum talk to him?

The Opposition wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:15am:
I have to think that in the face of an easy way to solve the Freetonian terrorism problem, if they really had the support of all the people (which I do admit is unlikely, but in the context of libertarianism being private courts and no government while everything else is tyranny maybe not so much), the Tyrannian government would just go ahead and turn into a HOA.

Yes, and do reelections if needed. They would call on their people to voluntarily cede portions of all their property to the Tyrannian government so they could keep doing their jobs and shut the Freetonians up at the same time.


your right, they have every right to do that, but all that will change is who is right, and my guess is tyrans interested in power not morals

The Opposition wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:39am:
Not going to argue this. I'm interested in facts. I'm interested in how morality actually works. I'm not going to shy away from saying certain things because they're racist, and honestly these are so many things in modern day that no matter how hard I try, you are going to be able to pick out something that doesn't pass the PC test. I can even show you where PC contradicts if you like, but the truth is I would rather just admit I'm a racist and move on.


okay first you are a lil crazy, so i dont really see how to reply to this but point is its not what you say, its how you say it

actual facts are not racist, but made-up facts are, like anyone can see whiteys try to hard to say they have good IQ that they have to make up stats to say theyre #2 when really they are last

The Opposition wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:39am:
That's harsh, but fair. It's honestly a natural consequence of moral objectivism, without which morality actually can't exist.


way for dumb whitey to sound smart: say a really simple obvious thing a dumb complicated way, but u right
  
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #38 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 5:05pm
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Bickeran wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
no hes not so ignore his ass, doesnt even understand the question omg why do peeps on this forum talk to him?


The lizard is compelled to talk. It's just a tool.

Yes, it's evil in it's very nature, but without outside compulsion, it would hide under rocks and never be seen or heard. That would be best.
  
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #39 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 5:06pm
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Bickeran wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
way for dumb whitey to sound smart...
Your racism is boring.
  
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