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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are homeless people libertarians? (Read 407 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #40 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:51am
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Bickeran wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
no hes not so ignore his ass, doesnt even understand the question omg why do peeps on this forum talk to him?


I may do that. I gave him examples and the law says that with a public figure, after you prove defamation you must also prove malice, and he ignores it.

Bickeran wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
okay first you are a lil crazy


How dare you?! You wound me good sir! "A little"?!?!!? What do you mean a little?!

Bickeran wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
actual facts are not racist, but made-up facts are, like anyone can see whiteys try to hard to say they have good IQ that they have to make up stats to say theyre #2 when really they are last


Even if this is true it doesn't preclude some white people being extremely intelligent. And I'm willing to accept that it's true because I don't care what other people who happen to share my skin colour have. All you did was make me even more exceptional.

Bickeran wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:23pm:
way for dumb whitey to sound smart: say a really simple obvious thing a dumb complicated way, but u right


You wait and see how many agree. Most people are moral subjectivists, even libertarians. They will say that a certain rule is absolute until they don't like the result, then they'll adjust.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #41 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 7:55am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:51am:
You wait and see how many agree. Most people are moral subjectivists, even libertarians. They will say that a certain rule is absolute until they don't like the result, then they'll adjust.
Believing that rights are absolute is not a mature position for anyone to take. There are circumstances where everyone's individual rights are constrained. Freedom of speech used to defraud is one example. The freedom to be armed used to rob people at gunpoint or murder them is another.

What holds in a realm of pure philosophical thought, such as the daydreams of anarcho-capitalists, can produce the exact opposite in the real world, just as the daydreams of Marxists produce Feudal systems of political economy in the real world.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #42 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 7:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 7:55am:
Believing that rights are absolute is not a mature position for anyone to take.


Hey Bicky, case in point.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #43 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 7:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Hey Bicky, case in point.
Which case do you think I helped you make? Isn't your position that there are no such things as rights? That what classical liberals/libertarians insist are inherent to everyone at birth are imaginary and that there are really only privileges granted by governments?

You know I think that's utter nonsense.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #44 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 12:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 7:08am:
Which case do you think I helped you make? Isn't your position that there are no such things as rights? That what classical liberals/libertarians insist are inherent to everyone at birth are imaginary and that there are really only privileges granted by governments?

You know I think that's utter nonsense.

He got ou on that one monkey boy. Sounds like Oppo is trying to go straight at least part time!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #45 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 3:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 7:08am:
Which case do you think I helped you make? Isn't your position that there are no such things as rights?


I hold that there are two absolutes. The first is maths. The second consists of things we define, including rights. This does not say anything of rights being good or bad for individuals, or society; certainly that depends on the society, the individuals, and the rights defined.

Stevea would have understood this. You either won't, or you'll pretend not to.

You also ignored all my references about having to prove actual malice when you've already proven deliberate defamation if you're in a certain position. Defamation is basically allowed. Political opponents exploit this fact all the time, which is why our elections are a trashfest.

http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/defamation-law-the-basics....
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Our government places a high priority on the public being allowed to speak their mind about elected officials as well as other public figures. People in the public eye get less protection from defamatory statements and face a higher burden when attempting to win a defamation lawsuit.

When an official is criticized in a false and injurious way for something that relates to their behavior in office, the official must prove all of the above elements associated with normal defamation, and must also show that the statement was made with "actual malice."


In addition, you ignored this too.

http://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/defamation.html
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Most media organisations avoid making retractions. Sometimes they will defend a defamation case and pay out lots of money rather than openly admit being wrong. Media owners have resisted law reforms that would require retractions of equal prominence to defamatory stories.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #46 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:31pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 3:17pm:
I hold that there are two absolutes. The first is maths. The second consists of things we define, including rights.
So when you define housing as a right, and food as a right, they become absolutes?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #47 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:34pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:31pm:
So when you define housing as a right, and food as a right, they become absolutes?


No. Those aren't real rights. Real rights are the ones defined by libertarian thinkers like Rothbard.

Real rights are property, and being free from aggression.

Rights like housing and food are inconsistent because not everyone can be provided with housing or food necessarily. There may be too many people. However, it is within possibility no matter the circumstances that people leave others' property alone and don't aggress.
  

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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #48 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 3:17pm:
You also ignored all my references about having to prove actual malice...
In our system of justice, proof of intent to do harm makes a crime more serious. Absence of intent does not alleviate you from responsibility for what you did (or said). Slandering someone out of ignorance and because you relied on bad information is less of a crime than slander for personal gain.

That's just theory.

Anyway, if you have proved the defamation was deliberate, it's a crime whether it was done for malicious enjoyment or personal gain.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #49 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:42pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:34pm:
No. Those aren't real rights. Real rights are the ones defined by libertarian thinkers like Rothbard.

Real rights are property, and being free from aggression.

Rights like housing and food are inconsistent because not everyone can be provided with housing or food necessarily. There may be too many people. However, it is within possibility no matter the circumstances that people leave others' property alone and don't aggress.
You seem to be making progress- it's probably an act as usual, but I'll play along-

Why do you think rights are absolute? If I beat and rape people every chance I get, how would I still claim a right to be free to go where I want and do what I want in society?

Another real right is my right to decide what to eat for breakfast, and who I want to work for, and where I want to live and whether I want to walk to work or take a bus or drive my car. These rights aren't absolute in any sense I can see. Can you explain how they are absolute? Thanks.
  
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