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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are homeless people libertarians? (Read 413 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #50 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 11:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:42pm:
Why do you think rights are absolute?


If rights aren't absolute, they're meaningless subjective crap that ultimately allow whoever is in power to dictate right and wrong.

Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:42pm:
If I beat and rape people every chance I get, how would I still claim a right to be free to go where I want and do what I want in society?


I used to think that only respect for rights can grant rights; that those who don't respect rights have none themselves. This was something similar to what you think about "barbarians" but the most libertarian truth is that rights are absolute and extend to at least all members of a species.

However, I was mistaken. In fact, I've learned that personal demand for one's own rights (Rothbard himself says) grants rights, rather than a person respecting the rights of others.

So yes, a rapist retains all rights. That doesn't mean anyone has to let him on their property, and traditionally, they can also self-defend against the rape itself. Rothbard even says people should never be forced into prison; they should only ever be made to make restitution.

Jeff wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 6:42pm:
Another real right is my right to decide what to eat for breakfast, and who I want to work for, and where I want to live and whether I want to walk to work or take a bus or drive my car. These rights aren't absolute in any sense I can see. Can you explain how they are absolute? Thanks.


Free will isn't a right. It's just a thing humans think they have.

If you own a bagel you may eat a bagel. That's absolute because it's a property right. If you own a Bagel and a Croissant you may eat either, neither, or both. If you don't have a mouth you can do anything else you want with them. The property right is what's absolute (but you must own the food). The ability to eat is not.

The rights are absolute. Even if you do not own any food, you still have the right to eat any food you do own. That's absolute.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #51 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 11:36pm:
If rights aren't absolute, they're meaningless subjective crap that ultimately allow whoever is in power to dictate right and wrong.
Therefore my right of freedom of speech includes the right to defraud people, and I should not be punished for stealing their property by that means because my right to freedom of speech is absolute?

Of course it's not. My freedom of speech, when used to defraud, runs up against the right of others to own property.

Your constant reliance on Rothbard, and only Rothbard, makes your arguments nonsensical to almost everyone in the world.
  
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Bickeran
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #52 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 3:29pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Hey Bicky, case in point.


you quote this asshole to me again i report you
  
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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #53 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 4:49pm
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Bickeran wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 3:29pm:
you quote this asshole to me again i report you
You call Donat an asshole again and the lizard will report you!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #54 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 10:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:05am:
Of course it's not. My freedom of speech, when used to defraud, runs up against the right of others to own property.


Rights are still absolute. The fact that you inherently can't violate anyone else's rights is baked-in.

Let's pretend I'm god. And hey, I'm that much of an egomaniac, so it works. For the purposes of this scenario I'm the one granting you rights.

God (a.k.a. me): Jeff, you have the right to do whatever you want with your own property so long as you don't violate anyone else's rights.

Jeff: The right you've just given me is not absolute because I can't violate others' rights with it!!!

...facepalm. Gigantic, massive, horrible facepalm because you're not understanding that the "as long as you don't violate the rights of others" is an inherent part of any right you have. So yes, that right I just gave you is absolute.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #55 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 9:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 10:58pm:
Rights are still absolute. The fact that you inherently can't violate anyone else's rights is baked-in.

That's what makes them less than absolute. The Right itself is inherent, but using it to violate the equal and equally inherent Rights of others is not.

That's what I've been saying. That's also what snowflakes claim when they claim a Right to never be offended by someone else's speech.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #56 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 11:25am
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A pertinent topic because one of the biggest problems with pseudo-libertarians is that they have no feeling for the rights of others when they demand rights for themselves.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #57 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 15th, 2017 at 11:25am:
A pertinent topic because one of the biggest problems with pseudo-libertarians is that they have no feeling for the rights of others when they demand rights for themselves.
Fortunately, real libertarians understand that responsibility is a necessary corollary to liberty.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #58 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 1:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 15th, 2017 at 12:58pm:
Fortunately, real libertarians understand that responsibility is a necessary corollary to liberty.


I'm sure everybody is getting the message too monkey boy! LOL

Gary Johnson for president!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Are homeless people libertarians?
Reply #59 - Nov 15th, 2017 at 4:20pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 15th, 2017 at 1:16pm:
I'm sure everybody is getting the message too monkey boy! LOL

Gary Johnson for president!
Fool! Johnson won't stand a chance against Hillary, Hillary is destined to be the First Woman President to be Proclaimed President for Life of the United States.

Edit: Sorry, of course Gary would never beat Bernie either, and Bernie really should have been the nominee.

But seriously, I heard talk of Biden for President if he's not even more demented by then.

Edit: A Bernie/Biden primary contest would be great!
  
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