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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Libertarian Thought Experiment (Read 208 times)
burnsred
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #20 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:34pm
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OK. You imagine that the people of the former Colonies could have relied on a privately funded and controlled navy to protect them from losing their new won independence and liberty.
I don't know how many different ways I have to say that I don't want privately controlled military or police?  I just want the funding to be voluntary because theft or robbery are the only other options to voluntary funding.

But I'm not imagining that a Navy paid for without our behemoth tax system combined with a non-standing Army comprised of volunteers could protect them.  That really happened in 1812.

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What would have prevented the wealthiest merchant ship owner from paying the private navy to sink or seize the merchant ships of his competitors?
Really?  You're going to go Don_G on me and keep arguing against what I never advocated?



  
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #21 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:34pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:27pm:
Excuses monkey boy.
Do you have any thoughts related to the newly independent American states chances of existing without government?
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #22 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:39pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:34pm:
I don't know how many different ways I have to say that I don't want privately controlled military or police?  I just want the funding to be voluntary because theft or robbery are the only other options to voluntary funding.

But I'm not imagining that a Navy paid for without our behemoth tax system combined with a non-standing Army comprised of volunteers could protect them.  That really happened in 1812.
The U.S. Navy that existed in 1812 was funded by taxes. There were 60,000 U.S. troops in that war, funded by taxes. Yes, volunteer militias organized by the states helped. They were paid and equipped by taxes.

The experiment of the United States under the Articles of Confederation proved that the people of the American States were not willing to voluntarily fund a national government, which means they weren't willing to voluntarily fund a navy.

You are free to imagine a navy paid for voluntarily just as you are free to imagine police and courts paid for voluntarily, but both are something that has never existed. You must make some very convincing arguments as to why/how you think they could exist.
  
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Don_G
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #23 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 2:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 1:39pm:
The U.S. Navy that existed in 1812 was funded by taxes. There were 60,000 U.S. troops in that war, funded by taxes. Yes, volunteer militias organized by the states helped. They were paid and equipped by taxes.

The experiment of the United States under the Articles of Confederation proved that the people of the American States were not willing to voluntarily fund a national government, which means they weren't willing to voluntarily fund a navy.

You are free to imagine a navy paid for voluntarily just as you are free to imagine police and courts paid for voluntarily, but both are something that has never existed. You must make some very convincing arguments as to why/how you think they could exist.


The American people vote for and support paying for a huge military. Isn't that part of the reason why you're trying to be libertarians?

If you ever find some appropriate direction you will join a party that understands the problem and really wants to do something about it. That may come with the next election for pres. Another Bernie but even smarter!
  
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burnsred
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #24 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 7:51pm
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The U.S. Navy that existed in 1812 was funded by taxes. There were 60,000 U.S. troops in that war, funded by taxes. Yes, volunteer militias organized by the states helped. They were paid and equipped by taxes.
But nothing like the crushingly burdensome tax system we have now.  The Navy and the Army would have been easily funded by voluntary fees but the whole point of the constitutionalists was to put more force into the national government, not less.  The exact opposite of libertarianism.

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The experiment of the United States under the Articles of Confederation proved that the people of the American States were not willing to voluntarily fund a national government, which means they weren't willing to voluntarily fund a navy.
Then why should they have those things if they weren't willing to fund them?

You can argue that - for their own good -  the people of the Americans states should have been forced to pay for them.  But that would be the opposite of a libertarian argument.


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You are free to imagine a navy paid for voluntarily just as you are free to imagine police and courts paid for voluntarily, but both are something that has never existed. You must make some very convincing arguments as to why/how you think they could exist.
I have but you have counter-argued against "private police" and "private armies" instead of what I actually proposed which is voluntarily funded armies and police. 

I will say that the "that's never existed!" argument is used against all aspects of libertarianism, not just voluntary funding of legitimate government functions. 

  
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #25 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 6:57am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 7:51pm:
But nothing like the crushingly burdensome tax system we have now.  The Navy and the Army would have been easily funded by voluntary fees but the whole point of the constitutionalists was to put more force into the national government, not less.  The exact opposite of libertarianism.

Then why should they have those things if they weren't willing to fund them?

You can argue that - for their own good -  the people of the Americans states should have been forced to pay for them.  But that would be the opposite of a libertarian argument.


I have but you have counter-argued against "private police" and "private armies" instead of what I actually proposed which is voluntarily funded armies and police. 

I will say that the "that's never existed!" argument is used against all aspects of libertarianism, not just voluntary funding of legitimate government functions. 

There was no willingness to voluntarily fund even a very limited national government under the Articles of Confederation.

My speculation is regarding what almost certainly would have happened to the newly independent American states had they not done the "unlibertarian" thing and created a limited constitutional national government with limited powers of taxation, or if they had taken the even more "libertarian" step of abolishing their existing state governments.

They were far from free of threats from the still strong Indian tribes who were allied with France and England. All of the three existing world superpowers had a strong presence in the Americas, and none of them, Not England, not France and not Spain liked the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence at all. They wanted to crush those ideas for the protection of their own Sovereign systems.

The very fact that their was a War of 1812 is strong proof that England had little respect for the Liberties proclaimed by Americans even after the formation of a national government with the power to tax and create a navy and raise armies.

In short, realizing the realities that faced Americans at the time that they had won their liberty, a "libertarian" solution such as you propose, where government responsibilities such as national defense would be voluntarily funded (which had already failed under the Articles of Confederation) would have ensured that the American experiment would have died stillborn.

The most likely outcome of instituting your "libertarian" proposal would have been that Americans would have soon once again become British subjects.
  
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burnsred
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #26 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:45am
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In short, realizing the realities that faced Americans at the time that they had won their liberty, a "libertarian" solution such as you propose, where government responsibilities such as national defense would be voluntarily funded (which had already failed under the Articles of Confederation) would have ensured that the American experiment would have died stillborn.

The most likely outcome of instituting your "libertarian" proposal would have been that Americans would have soon once again become British subjects.
And therefore, what?  What's the difference between being British subjects and U.S. subjects if we had freedom under neither?  Once the new constitutional government started taxing citizens and using guns to collect those taxes, the American experiment fundamentally changed its character.  Instead of an experiment in freedom and limited government, it became an experiment to see if somewhat democratically elected government could grow in power and intrusiveness as quickly as a monarchy could.  Turns out the answer was "Yes, even faster!"

How many lives was it worth to live under dictators born in Virginia instead of dictators born in London?



  
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #27 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:41am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:45am:
And therefore, what?  What's the difference between being British subjects and U.S. subjects if we had freedom under neither?
Americans are not subjects. You should really find out the fundamental differences in our forms of government. It would make talking about this with you easier.

My essential point is, what's the sense of idealizing a form of perfect liberty if you have no practical way of realizing any of it.

  
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burnsred
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #28 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:49am
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Americans are not subjects. You should really find out the fundamental differences in our forms of government. It would make talking about this with you easier.
So again you emulate Don_G by insulting me instead of debating me when you have no good answer?

Or do you seriously mean that freedom is not important as the fact that we call ourselves "citizens" rather than "subjects?"


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My essential point is, what's the sense of idealizing a form of perfect liberty if you have no practical way of realizing any of it.
It's like when you're navigating and you want to go in a straight line.  You pick a point on the horizon and aim for it.  You may never get there, but your path will be straighter with fewer steps wasted and no getting off trail if you keep your eye on that point.  Wherever you go using that method will be closer to your goal then if you keep stopping at Buckey's because you like overpriced roasted almonds and braless road chicks.



  
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Jeff
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Re: A Libertarian Thought Experiment
Reply #29 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:58am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:49am:
So again you emulate Don_G by insulting me instead of debating me when you have no good answer?


You claim there is no difference between the limited government established in America in 1789 and the government of England at the time because they both levied taxes, and want me to debate you about that absurd statement?
  
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