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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription? (Read 321 times)
Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #20 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:21am
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Googling "How do libertarians feel about military conscription" brought up this article almost at the top.

https://www.cato-unbound.org/2013/09/09/there-is-no-libertarian-case-national-mi...

You could learn a lot from reading it. Libertarians in general agree with what it says.

People on this forum might disagree... or not.
  
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burnsred
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #21 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:25am
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Come on, Jeff.  You're better than that.  Why is it immoral?
Why would it be moral? Can you think of a single reason? I can't.

BTW, asking how libertarians feel about conscription on a libertarian forum is the real waste of bandwidth and time.


Not really.  Not on this libertarian forum anyway.

I think you know where I'm going with that question which is why you're being so evasive. 

  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #22 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:28am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:25am:
I think you know where I'm going with that question which is why you're being so evasive. 

I think conscription is immoral. What's evasive about that?

You in turn are being evasive to not answer what could make someone believe that conscription is moral.

I also think theft is immoral, and assault and murder... Do you insist that I explain why?
  
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burnsred
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #23 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:39am
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I think you know where I'm going with that question which is why you're being so evasive.

I think conscription is immoral. What's evasive about that?
That I've asked at least twice for you to say why it's immoral.

Quote:
You in turn are being evasive to not answer what could make someone believe that conscription is moral.
They might say that without conscription, the nation would soon be re-colonized by European powers or that without conscription, the sacrifices required to protect our freedom are not shared by all or that conscription is perfectly legal and constitutional as long as it is done by duly elected officials so the only moral option is to vote against those officials next election.  How would you answer those claims?

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I also think theft is immoral, and assault and murder... Do you insist that I explain why?


For the theft and assault, actually I would like for you to explain why those are immoral.  That way I'll understand better why you think it is ok for government to take property from its owners and to apply physical force, up to and including deadly force, to anyone who resists having their property taken.  That would be theft and assault in my book, but you seem to have a different take on it when its the government doing it.

I assume that as a libertarian you oppose the death penalty, so I won't ask why murder is immoral.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #24 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:49am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:39am:
That I've asked at least twice for you to say why it's immoral.


I assume that as a libertarian you oppose the death penalty, so I won't ask why murder is immoral.
I believe that killing people is immoral, but that the death penalty is justified. That's probably too subtle for you, being a purist as you are... Think of it in the same way you think of killing in self defense or in defense of your family.

What could possibly be moral about conscription?

BTW, Opposition to something does not affect it's morality one way or the other.
  
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burnsred
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #25 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:26am
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Jeff Wrote:

Quote:
I believe that killing people is immoral, but that the death penalty is justified. That's probably too subtle for you, being a purist as you are... Think of it in the same way you think of killing in self defense or in defense of your family.


I can't because it isn't the same.  One is an emergency action to save lives.  The other is adding one more death to a tragic situation on the grounds that government is competent to decide who should live and who should die.


Quote:
What could possibly be moral about conscription?


Possibly?  Arguably: 

-Without conscription, our new nation would quickly have been re-colonized by European powers. 

-Without conscription, the sacrifices required to protect our freedom are not shared by all.

-Without conscription during WWII, the Germans and the Japanese would now be occupying America with the Mississippi river as their dividing line. 

-Conscription is perfectly legal and constitutional as long as it is done by duly elected officials so the only moral option is to vote against those officials next election. 

How would you answer those claims?
  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #26 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:58am
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I can't because it isn't the same.  One is an emergency action to save lives.  The other is adding one more death to a tragic situation on the grounds that government is competent to decide who should live and who should die.


Well stated burnsred!
  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #27 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:02pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:58am:
Well stated burnsred!


You're making a good case for conscription. I'll amend my position against it to say that I would be against it in all cases where it's used for dishonest purposes. WW2 is at least questionable from an American's POV. Offhand, I would say that none of the later ones were.
  
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ahhell
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #28 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:50pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:26am:
Jeff Wrote:


Conscription is perfectly legal and constitutional as long as it is done by duly elected officials so the only moral option is to vote against those officials next election. 

How would you answer those claims?
It really not:

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Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Conscription is clearly involuntary servitude.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #29 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:28pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:50pm:
It really not:

Conscription is clearly involuntary servitude. 


Don't fall back on the lazy way of arguing it by referring to that old outdated constitution. There will always be somebody who interprets differently and makes conscription o.k.
  
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