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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription? (Read 324 times)
ahhell
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #30 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:50pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:28pm:
Don't fall back on the lazy way of arguing it by referring to that old outdated constitution. There will always be somebody who interprets differently and makes conscription o.k.
That's like saying don't lazily use a dictionary to argue the meaning of a word.  The Constitution is the Law in the US, when arguing whether something is constitutional, the first reference should be the Constitution.  Anything else is solipsisim. 


  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #31 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 2:02pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 1:50pm:
That's like saying don't lazily use a dictionary to argue the meaning of a word.  The Constitution is the Law in the US, when arguing whether something is constitutional, the first reference should be the Constitution.  Anything else is solipsisim. 




o.k. then, you're wrong.

Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States
The Conscription Act of 1917 was passed in June. ... The Supreme Court unanimously upheld the constitutionality of the draft act in the Selective Draft Law Cases on January 7, 1918. The decision said the Constitution gave Congress the power to declare war and to raise and support armies.


End of discussion unless you want to try something a little more persuasive.

Or how about finding an exact opposite interpretation? The topic is a hint for you. And your answer didn't even come close to answering that question. Get the point now?

Talk of solopsism, you nailed it!
  
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burnsred
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #32 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 2:52pm
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Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Conscription is clearly involuntary servitude.
Clearly, you are right.  If our government actually followed the constitution we'd have something here.

That language was amended to our constitution following the Civil War, which at the time was the greatest mobilizations of conscripts in U.S. history.  It was only a few decades later that the U.S. conscripted people into Woodrow Wilson's crusade to make the world safe for democracy which crusade led directly to FDR's conscription for the great crusade to make Europe safe for Soviet and French Socialism.  Later we had the crusade to show that the United Nations could prevent the spread of communism to South Korea and then the crusade to show that the U.S. could prevent the spread of communism into South Vietnam.  In each of those crusades, slaves were sent to their deaths under threat of imprisonment by our government. 

We had plenty of volunteers for the military in the decades following Vietnam (yes, I was one of them).  That is due to high unemployment which was due to the poverty of the American economy starting in the late sixties caused by the debasement of American currency, the open borders movement and the ramping up of the welfare state.  So we are able to fight the great crusades to do whatever the heck we're supposed to be doing in the middle east without resorting to a draft.  We needn't wonder, then, why government always seems to make the economy worse instead of better.

Conscription is and will always be wrong.  There can be no greater evil than enslavement so there can be no evil great enough that fighting it justifies slavery.
  
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ahhell
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #33 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:00pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 2:02pm:
o.k. then, you're wrong.


End of discussion unless you want to try something a little more persuasive.

Or how about finding an exact opposite interpretation? The topic is a hint for you. And your answer didn't even come close to answering that question. Get the point now?

Talk of solopsism, you nailed it!

The supreme court was clearly wrong.  The bit banning involuntary servitude, is an amendment that clearly effects the power of the US government to raise armies in order to fight wars. 

Perhaps either you ro the long dead supremes manage to interpret conscription as anything other than involuntary servitude. 

Regardless of this error.  If a citizen has no choice in becoming a citizen then it remains immoral to conscript them. 

  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #34 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:32pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:00pm:
The supreme court was clearly wrong.  The bit banning involuntary servitude, is an amendment that clearly effects the power of the US government to raise armies in order to fight wars. 

Perhaps either you ro the long dead supremes manage to interpret conscription as anything other than involuntary servitude. 

Regardless of this error.  If a citizen has no choice in becoming a citizen then it remains immoral to conscript them. 




So your answer is, the SCOTUS was wrong. How original!
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #35 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:36pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:00pm:
The bit banning involuntary servitude, is an amendment that clearly effects the power of the US government to raise armies in order to fight wars. 
Article 1 Sect. 8 is clear in it's grant of power.

The "bit" you mention is essential in the grand scheme of America, but the power to raise armies was seen as essential to preserving an America where no one would be subjected to involuntary servitude.

It's a balancing act.

My idea is that people who value the ideals of America will be willing to fight for them.
  
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ahhell
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #36 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:49pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:32pm:
So your answer is, the SCOTUS was wrong. How original!
Originality has no bearing on whether a statement is true or false.

Is conscription involuntary servitude?  If not, explain.

Does the constitution ban involuntary servitude? If not, explain based on a reasonable interpretation of the words of the Constitution. 


There are only two sentences that need to be parsed to figure this out. 

Quote:
The Congress shall have Power To ...raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years


Quote:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Where in those two sentences is the governement of the United States authorized to conscript soldiers.

Jeff wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:36pm:
Article 1 Sect. 8 is clear in it's grant of power.

The "bit" you mention is essential in the grand scheme of America, but the power to raise armies was seen as essential to preserving an America where no one would be subjected to involuntary servitude.

I agree, they have the authority to raise armies by paying volunteers to fight.  It does not grant them the authority to force citizens into service.  Even if it did, that would have been prohibited by the 13th amendment.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #37 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:55pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:00pm:
If a citizen has no choice in becoming a citizen then it remains immoral to conscript them. 
It would be just as immoral to force someone to become a Citizen. I agree.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #38 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:49pm:
Where in those two sentences is the governement of the United States authorized to conscript soldiers.
People usually try to find it in the Article 1 Sect. 8 power to raise armies for specified reasons... Your reasoning is sloppy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #39 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 5:01pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:49pm:
I agree, they have the authority to raise armies by paying volunteers to fight.  It does not grant them the authority to force citizens into service. 
This has been an area of legitimate debate since the time of General George Washington.

Your side has not decisively won... Nor have your opposition.
  
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