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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription? (Read 323 times)
Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #40 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 6:07pm
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:49pm:
Originality has no bearing on whether a statement is true or false.

Is conscription involuntary servitude?  If not, explain.

Does the constitution ban involuntary servitude? If not, explain based on a reasonable interpretation of the words of the Constitution. 


There are only two sentences that need to be parsed to figure this out. 


Where in those two sentences is the governement of the United States authorized to conscript soldiers.

I agree, they have the authority to raise armies by paying volunteers to fight.  It does not grant them the authority to force citizens into service.  Even if it did, that would have been prohibited by the 13th amendment.


The law's the law. You don't have to convince me your constitution is a piece of outdated shit. All I'm trying to tell you is that you need to stop relying on it for your argument. Some asshole will interpret it to say the opposite.

Example as given by you. And it wasn't the question asked by the topic anyway. I stated my opinion as asked by the OP and I don't need any stupid fu-king constitution to help me.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #41 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:12pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 6:07pm:
The law's the law. You don't have to convince me your constitution is a piece of outdated shit.
Is your schizophrenia your biggest problem? Our Constitution is our Law. Our Supreme Law.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #42 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 8:34am
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ahhell wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:49pm:
Is conscription involuntary servitude?  If not, explain.

Does the constitution ban involuntary servitude? If not, explain based on a reasonable interpretation of the words of the Constitution. 


There are only two sentences that need to be parsed to figure this out. 


There is a long tradition of Constitutional interpretation that holds that the Constitution is a coherent whole, that one part of it cannot be interpreted so as to render another part invalid.

This would hold for this discussion. The clear grant of power to raise armies cannot be rendered void by a prohibition on involuntary servitude. Since the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the legitimacy of conscription as a necessary means to raise armies, the court has obviously concluded that conscription is not involuntary servitude as mentioned in the 13th Amendment.

Certainly libertarians think conscription is a moral wrong, but the view that raising armies may be necessary to the preservation of a nation and system of government that preserves and protects Liberty cannot be casually discarded.

Neither libertarian/classical liberal philosophy nor the U.S. Constitution are suicide pacts.

In much the same way that violating the moral precept that killing humans is wrong may be justified by self defense, the moral wrong of conscription may be justifiably violated in order to preserve the Liberty of the entire nation.

Personally, I think an actual existential threat to America would find volunteers in sufficient numbers such that conscription would not be necessary, and that the perceived need to draft people into service is a very strong indication that a war is not in fact approved by the  American people and should therefore not be authorized or pursued by Congress.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #43 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 12:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 8:34am:
There is a long tradition of Constitutional interpretation that holds that the Constitution is a coherent whole, that one part of it cannot be interpreted so as to render another part invalid.

This would hold for this discussion. The clear grant of power to raise armies cannot be rendered void by a prohibition on involuntary servitude. Since the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the legitimacy of conscription as a necessary means to raise armies, the court has obviously concluded that conscription is not involuntary servitude as mentioned in the 13th Amendment.

Certainly libertarians think conscription is a moral wrong, but the view that raising armies may be necessary to the preservation of a nation and system of government that preserves and protects Liberty cannot be casually discarded.

Neither libertarian/classical liberal philosophy nor the U.S. Constitution are suicide pacts.

In much the same way that violating the moral precept that killing humans is wrong may be justified by self defense, the moral wrong of conscription may be justifiably violated in order to preserve the Liberty of the entire nation.


And the short answer is burnsred, that constitution will be interpreted any way that becomes necessary by some corrupt court. Then the Scotus will finally settle the matter based on politics with a 5-4 decision

Quote:
Personally, I think an actual existential threat to America would find volunteers in sufficient numbers such that conscription would not be necessary, and that the perceived need to draft people into service is a very strong indication that a war is not in fact approved by the  American people and should therefore not be authorized or pursued by Congress.


And that's mostly promotion of what libertarians fight against. A war is going to require the propagandizing of the people into accepting it as a just war. But libertarians know that all US wars haven't been just wars. So absent the propagandizing, you promote the idea of coercing the people into supporting the next big war. Your words seem to betray your real politics and they don't sound libertarian.

I would naturally take the position that as per the usual, a draft would be necessary in order to have enough troops to do the job.

And in the final analysis, the US could never muster enough to fight the enemy of the future.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #44 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 3:13pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 12:25pm:
And the short answer is burnsred, that constitution will be interpreted any way that becomes necessary by some corrupt court. Then the Scotus will finally settle the matter based on politics with a 5-4 decision
That conscription is permitted to raise armies has already been decided by the Supreme Court. Corruption, sharp practice and legal fictions were not required.

The power to raise armies is granted to Congress, the power to hold people in involuntary servitude or slavery is prohibited to people living in America... Thus, the Constitution remains coherent.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #45 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 4:24pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:53am:
One month ago, I would have never thought to ask that question for fear of being flamed into oblivion for asking such an obvious queston.  Now I wonder.

Is it safe to assume that each and every poster who calls themselves a libertarian is unalterably opposed to a draft no matter what the circumstances?  That there is no situation in which conscripting people into military service is acceptable, be it historical or hypothetical?

I've tried hard to give satisfactory answers to this red... Have I succeeded?

I assume that you familiarized yourself with the historical instances where conscription was used. Other than Vietnam, which libertarians almost all opposed, which instance of conscription for what war would you call completely unjustified?
  
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burnsred
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #46 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 10:35am
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All quotes from Jeff:

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There is a long tradition of Constitutional interpretation that holds that the Constitution is a coherent whole, that one part of it cannot be interpreted so as to render another part invalid.

This would hold for this discussion. The clear grant of power to raise armies cannot be rendered void by a prohibition on involuntary servitude. Since the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the legitimacy of conscription as a necessary means to raise armies, the court has obviously concluded that conscription is not involuntary servitude as mentioned in the 13th Amendment.
True, which is one of many reasons that I am not a constitutionalist even though it would be a huge step in the right direction if we actually went back to following the constitution again.

Early in constitutional history two events happened that set the nation on the path way from libertarianism and toward oligarchy:  The Whiskey Rebellion and the Marbury v. Madison decision.  I've already talked about the Whiskey Rebellion and how George "Pay Up Sucka" Washington treated freedom loving Americans as military foes.  The first military foes he was ever unable to defeat.  In M v M, the court granted itself and all lower federal courts the power to decide whether to approve or disapprove of actions by the other branches.  The other branches made the classic statist mistake of going along with the ruling because they liked its immediate outcome instead of noticing how much ground elected representatives had lost in the separation of powers the constitution is supposed to maintain.

Quote:
Certainly libertarians think conscription is a moral wrong, but the view that raising armies may be necessary to the preservation of a nation and system of government that preserves and protects Liberty cannot be casually discarded.

Neither libertarian/classical liberal philosophy nor the U.S. Constitution are suicide pacts.
The phrase about a suicide pact came from the 1949 Terminiello v. City of Chicago decision.  The majority ruled in favor of free speech while Justice Jackson wrote a dissent in which he equated allowing that free speech to suicide.  What he and others who use that phrase mean is not suicide for the people of the nation but suicide for the government of the nation.  It is always overwrought and hyperbolic.  The nation's government, nor the government of the City of Chicago did not die because the USSC allowed free speech over Jackson's objections.

But suppose it were true.  Suppose that if a government allows a specific given freedom then it will not last, it will whither away or will implode or some such.  It is impossible to imagine which freedom would kill a government unless it were a fascist government to begin with but let's try.  If the purpose of government is nothing more than maintaining freedom, what do we gain by giving up our freedom so that the government can protect our freedom?  It would be like giving all our money to a bank so the bank can continue to keep our money safe.  But if we lose our money to that bank, who but the bank benefits?  Would the counter argument to that be that we still must give our money to the bank because without it the bank would die and the right to keep our own money is not a suicide pact?

Quote:
In much the same way that violating the moral precept that killing humans is wrong may be justified by self defense, the moral wrong of conscription may be justifiably violated in order to preserve the Liberty of the entire nation.
So you envision a group of elders saying, "Well, are we going to allow our armies to be defeated and lose our liberty just because of this constitution?  No, we never agreed to a suicide pact!  But don't worry, I have a list of eighteen to twenty year olds right here.  Let's pick some names at random and make them commit suicide!"

Quote:
Personally, I think an actual existential threat to America would find volunteers in sufficient numbers such that conscription would not be necessary, and that the perceived need to draft people into service is a very strong indication that a war is not in fact approved by the  American people and should therefore not be authorized or pursued by Congress.
Correct.

But if Americans are not willing to risk life for liberty, who has the moral authority to force them to?

  
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Don_G
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #47 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 11:35am
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It seems to be settled. Libertarians don't really feel much of anything, for or against conscription. It will be decided at the time and that will depend for the most part on whether the hate propaganda against the perceived enemy has been effective or not.

Historically, it's always been adequate to get enough young men. It was for the Vietnam war and that really set the bar about as low as it could go. The only reason draft dodgers were a problem that needed to be dealt with is that they set a bad example that could have spiralled out of control.

If there's a next draft coming then it will likely be for a war that involved Russia/China/Iran/the Brics. The demonization of the enemy is already in place in my opinion.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #48 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 2:08pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 10:35am:
All quotes from Jeff:

True, which is one of many reasons that I am not a constitutionalist even though it would be a huge step in the right direction if we actually went back to following the constitution again.

Early in constitutional history two events happened that set the nation on the path way from libertarianism and toward oligarchy:  The Whiskey Rebellion and the Marbury v. Madison decision.  I've already talked about the Whiskey Rebellion and how George "Pay Up Sucka" Washington treated freedom loving Americans as military foes.  The first military foes he was ever unable to defeat.  In M v M, the court granted itself and all lower federal courts the power to decide whether to approve or disapprove of actions by the other branches.  The other branches made the classic statist mistake of going along with the ruling because they liked its immediate outcome instead of noticing how much ground elected representatives had lost in the separation of powers the constitution is supposed to maintain.

The phrase about a suicide pact came from the 1949 Terminiello v. City of Chicago decision.  The majority ruled in favor of free speech while Justice Jackson wrote a dissent in which he equated allowing that free speech to suicide.  What he and others who use that phrase mean is not suicide for the people of the nation but suicide for the government of the nation.  It is always overwrought and hyperbolic.  The nation's government, nor the government of the City of Chicago did not die because the USSC allowed free speech over Jackson's objections.

But suppose it were true.  Suppose that if a government allows a specific given freedom then it will not last, it will whither away or will implode or some such.  It is impossible to imagine which freedom would kill a government unless it were a fascist government to begin with but let's try.  If the purpose of government is nothing more than maintaining freedom, what do we gain by giving up our freedom so that the government can protect our freedom?  It would be like giving all our money to a bank so the bank can continue to keep our money safe.  But if we lose our money to that bank, who but the bank benefits?  Would the counter argument to that be that we still must give our money to the bank because without it the bank would die and the right to keep our own money is not a suicide pact?

So you envision a group of elders saying, "Well, are we going to allow our armies to be defeated and lose our liberty just because of this constitution?  No, we never agreed to a suicide pact!  But don't worry, I have a list of eighteen to twenty year olds right here.  Let's pick some names at random and make them commit suicide!"

Correct.

But if Americans are not willing to risk life for liberty, who has the moral authority to force them to?

The power of Congress to raise armies is part of the original Constitution, and that power certainly includes conscription. Otherwise it is an empty power.

I used the "suicide pact" in reference to this.

Without powers of taxation and raising armies, the infant U.S. would not have existed for long at all. The new Americans would once again have become colonists of some great power and our freedom would have been lost very early on.

  
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Jeff
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Re: How do the Libertarians here Feel about Conscription?
Reply #49 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 2:11pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 11:35am:
It seems to be settled. Libertarians don't really feel much of anything, for or against conscription.
You haven't been paying attention.


  
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