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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . . (Read 375 times)
burnsred
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Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Nov 9th, 2017 at 9:42am
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. . . in order to force you neighbor to pay a tax as long as the money is intended for whatever good purpose the tax was levied for?

Assuming you were duly deputized by the government body who would benefit from that tax, would you be willing to hold a riot gun on Jim from next door if he refuses to pay the tax?  What if he still refuses?  Would you pull the trigger and move on the the next house to see if making an example out of Jim helped Josephine to see her civic duty? 

What if it were property tax and instead of being asked to shoot Jim, you were told to use your firepower to hold him off while county agents changed his locks and moved your friend's stuff onto the sidewalk?  If Jim makes a move to block the agents, would you let him have it with both barrels?   

Or do you prefer to have hired hands do the dirty work while you pat yourself on the back for being such a good citizen?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #1 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:53am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 9:42am:
. . . in order to force you neighbor to pay a tax as long as the money is intended for whatever good purpose the tax was levied for?


No, that would be illegal.

Do you understand nothing of the reasons for granting government a monopoly on force?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #2 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:56am
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Quote:
. . . in order to force you neighbor to pay a tax as long as the money is intended for whatever good purpose the tax was levied for?


No, that would be illegal.

Do you understand nothing of the reasons for granting government a monopoly on force?
I sure do understand that.  Which is why my post clearly said:

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Assuming you were duly deputized by the government body who would benefit from that tax
So stop dodging (or is it "Donning") and answer the question.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #3 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:03am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 10:56am:
I sure do understand that.  Which is why my post clearly said:

So stop dodging (or is it "Donning") and answer the question.
Legal taxes are essential to fund a government which is capable of protecting our lives and liberty and property.

The collection of taxes in the U.S. virtually never involves SWAT teams or armed police.

Your fantasy that voluntary contributions can take the place of taxes is unrealistic.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #4 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:39am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:03am:
The collection of taxes in the U.S. virtually never involves SWAT teams or armed police.

Correct. They don't need SWAT or armed Police. The IRS has their own heavily armed agents!

Not all IRS agents are armed, of course. It’s only the Criminal Investigation Division. Yet even within that group there’s been some criticism. According to one government audit, IRS Agents 'Accidentally' Discharged Guns 11 Times between 2009 and 2011.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/01/18/gun-toting-at-the-irs/#3935ab...
  
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Don_G
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #5 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:41am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 9:42am:
. . . in order to force you neighbor to pay a tax as long as the money is intended for whatever good purpose the tax was levied for?

Assuming you were duly deputized by the government body who would benefit from that tax, would you be willing to hold a riot gun on Jim from next door if he refuses to pay the tax?  What if he still refuses?  Would you pull the trigger and move on the the next house to see if making an example out of Jim helped Josephine to see her civic duty? 

What if it were property tax and instead of being asked to shoot Jim, you were told to use your firepower to hold him off while county agents changed his locks and moved your friend's stuff onto the sidewalk?  If Jim makes a move to block the agents, would you let him have it with both barrels?   

Or do you prefer to have hired hands do the dirty work while you pat yourself on the back for being such a good citizen?


I would expect the police to arrest him if the situation came to that. It's likely it wouldn't though and they would just nail up a notice on his front door letting him know his property was confiscated for back taxes.

If you're imagining a nearly non-existent case of him not moving on then perhaps the police (sheriff in Canada) would have to put the handcuffs on him and take him to a lockup.

(sheriff has a different meaning in Canada)
  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #6 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:39pm
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No one on this thread except skychief understands the force involved in taxation.  When some blue-haired old lady with an accounting degree working for the IRS sends you a letter telling you you owe an additional $39.54 on your 2014 taxes is that a gun threat? 

Sure is.  I don't care if the old bat sealed the letter with a kiss, it reeks of cordite and drips with break-free.  Don't believe me?  Try not paying it and see what happens.  Sooner or later and it may be much later, the men with guns will show up at your door to take your stuff.  Resist and they will use whatever level of force is required.
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The collection of taxes in the U.S. virtually never involves SWAT teams or armed police.
But it sure does happen.  Just ask Cliven Bundy, Benny Hinn, Mountain Pure Water Bottling Company and Duncan Outdoors, Inc.  Yes, it is relatively "rare" because the few times that it happens is enough to scare most citizens into rolling over and exposing their throats when they get a visit from the tax collector.

Just as a person who favors the death penalty should be willing to throw the switch, a person who favors taxation should be willing to bear arms against their neighbor if their neighbor is slow to pay.

So Jeff - rather than falsely claim my scenario never happens, please answer whether you are willing to be hands on with the policy of taxation through armed force.




  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #7 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:42pm
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Quote:
If you're imagining a nearly non-existent case of him not moving on then perhaps the police (sheriff in Canada) would have to put the handcuffs on him and take him to a lockup.
So are you willing to be the one to slap the cuffs on?

In the U.S. they need guns to do that, I guess in Canada people are pretty passive and compliant.

  
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #8 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:15pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:39pm:
No one on this thread except skychief understands the force involved in taxation.  When some blue-haired old lady with an accounting degree working for the IRS sends you a letter telling you you owe an additional $39.54 on your 2014 taxes is that a gun threat? 


It's not an issue of understanding it because it's very simple to understand. It's a matter of accepting it. And so theoretically the way you state it as a gun threat is correct, providing you want to state it that way. I wouldn't because the situation rarely escalates to the use of guns. Does that work for you? It's a lot more nuanced than what the Chief is capable of understanding.

Sure is.  I don't care if the old bat sealed the letter with a kiss, it reeks of cordite and drips with break-free.  Don't believe me?  Try not paying it and see what happens.  Sooner or later and it may be much later, the men with guns will show up at your door to take your stuff.  Resist and they will use whatever level of force is required. [/quote]

It's an extreme way of saying it, as I've pointed out, but it's undeniably true nonetheless.

Quote:
But it sure does happen.  Just ask Cliven Bundy, Benny Hinn, Mountain Pure Water Bottling Company and Duncan Outdoors, Inc.  Yes, it is relatively "rare" because the few times that it happens is enough to scare most citizens into rolling over and exposing their throats when they get a visit from the tax collector.


I would be interested in discussing those cases on their merits in order to help us determine whether or not they would be representative of what happens in more than just one or two cases out of millions. As for citizens living in fear of such, you would have to verify that is true for me to accept it.

Quote:
Just as a person who favors the death penalty should be willing to throw the switch, a person who favors taxation should be willing to bear arms against their neighbor if their neighbor is slow to pay.


I wouldn't go that far but I would say that I would have to be willing to advocate armed force against somebody who didn't pay his tax bills. As a last resort of course. And to answer the question you ask Jeff. I think my advocating of the use of force it fulfilling your requirement. It's not rational to expect me or Jeff to use force. If it's guilt you're trying to place, then I would say I'm just as guilty as the cop that uses his gun to threaten. Or in fact, kill if it came to that.

Quote:
So Jeff - rather than falsely claim my scenario never happens, please answer whether you are willing to be hands on with the policy of taxation through armed force.





  
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Jeff
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #9 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:26pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:39pm:
No one on this thread except skychief understands the force involved in taxation.

I do. If you want to talk about it rationally, don't start out with hyperbolic scenarios including pointed guns.

An agency that can empty your bank account, seize and sell your property, ruin your credit and garnish your pay very rarely needs to use any physical force.

The only reason they have a SWAT team is so they can join in with all the other Executive branch SWAT teams to act as the President's private army.

Oh. Would I work for the IRS? No. Not even as a consultant.
  
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