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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . . (Read 374 times)
Jeff
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #20 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 6:51pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:41pm:
So I am correct in that you advocate force to provide weatlh for the government but feel the hands on use of it is somehow beneath you?



I favor legal taxation to fund the legitimate purposes of government, certainly not to "provide wealth for the government".

I wouldn't work for the IRS because currently they are engaged in collecting illegal taxes for unconstitutional purposes.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #21 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:45pm
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If I want the benefits of the community, the society, the government, that system, in which I live and benefit from then I have to be agreeable to living within the law. So that should answer your question for all you examples.
No, it just tells me that you are dodging all  my examples.
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That doesn't mean I wouldn't use all the legal force I could apply to change it if it was egregious enough. The main poin I would like to make brunsred: In my country it's not extreme examples such as you are imagining.
How is bashing your neighbor's head in to force him to pay for awesome government projects extreme?  It is exactly what is threatened and worse.


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I'm certainly not going to withhold paying my taxes to protest the military. I may resort to other legal pressures I can apply?
Well, I'm not either.  I'm going to pay my taxes because the consequences of not paying them are far to harsh for me to bear.  What I'm not going to to is pretend that taxes are anything other than theft or pretending that theft is justified if there are rilly, rilly cool things the gov can do with the stolen money.

  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #22 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:52pm
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I favor legal taxation to fund the legitimate purposes of government, certainly not to "provide wealth for the government".
Tens of thousands of bureaucrats on the senior executive service pay scale all make well over six figures while lawmakers and cabinet level officers make twice what those overpaid desk potatoes make.  All paid for by taxes often leveled on families working two jobs just to make the rent.  That's the tip of the iceberg compared to the billions that go to contractors who are heavy donors to those lawmakers and senior officials and to transfer payments to reliable voters for those lawmakers.
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I wouldn't work for the IRS because currently they are engaged in collecting illegal taxes for unconstitutional purposes.
That's the system that you defend, though and you advocate use of force in order to gain compliance with it.  The corruption of the IRS is entirely predictable and cannot be stopped short of abandoning the idea that government has a right to steal because it is government.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #23 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 8:30pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:45pm:
No, it just tells me that you are dodging all  my examples.
How is bashing your neighbor's head in to force him to pay for awesome government projects extreme?  It is exactly what is threatened and worse.


I'm not dodging any questions. And I'm not going to get into any more exaggerations on bashing somebody's head in. I think that both Jeff and I have been quite straight forward and tolerant of your exaggerated questioning and now I think you should just ask any questions you have not had answered and call it a day.


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Well, I'm not either.  I'm going to pay my taxes because the consequences of not paying them are far to harsh for me to bear.  What I'm not going to to is pretend that taxes are anything other than theft or pretending that theft is justified if there are rilly, rilly cool things the gov can do with the stolen money.


It's possible that bad government is doing what you suggest with your tax money. I don't think my Canadian government are nearly as guilty of that. Occasionally, there is corruption but personally I don't live my life fretting over it. I just make a decision at election time on whether to continue to support the same gov.

Taxation is not theft, it's payment due for the goods and services you have willingly bought from the common wealth.

[
  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #24 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 8:59pm
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No, it just tells me that you are dodging all  my examples.
How is bashing your neighbor's head in to force him to pay for awesome government projects extreme?  It is exactly what is threatened and worse.


I'm not dodging any questions. And I'm not going to get into any more exaggerations on bashing somebody's head in. I think that both Jeff and I have been quite straight forward and tolerant of your exaggerated questioning and now I think you should just ask any questions you have not had answered and call it a day.
Oh, you both have answered my questions perfectly:

Do you support government taking money from earners by force? 

Yes.

Would you be willing to be the person who actually applies that force?

No.

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Well, I'm not either.  I'm going to pay my taxes because the consequences of not paying them are far to harsh for me to bear.  What I'm not going to to is pretend that taxes are anything other than theft or pretending that theft is justified if there are rilly, rilly cool things the gov can do with the stolen money.


It's possible that bad government is doing what you suggest with your tax money.
What things?   I'm not saying it's wrong for the government to steal because they don't do the right things with the money.  I'm saying theft is theft no matter how noble the uses of the stolen money.
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I don't think my Canadian government are nearly as guilty of that. Occasionally, there is corruption but personally I don't live my life fretting over it.
Taxes lead to corruption, but if you define corruption as government not doing what it is intended to do, taxes aren't corruption.  They are theft but that is what is intended as soon as government decides to take money form certain people to spend it on projects or payments for certain people.  When they rob the rich to give to the poor, it's still robbery.

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I just make a decision at election time on whether to continue to support the same gov.
So your position is that it's OK to steal because majority rules?

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Taxation is not theft, it's payment due for the goods and services you have willingly bought from the common wealth.
Your theory that I willingly agree to having half my earnings taken because I don't live in the woods where I could earn nothing is specious.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #25 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:30am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:52pm:
Tens of thousands of bureaucrats on the senior executive service pay scale all make well over six figures while lawmakers and cabinet level officers make twice what those overpaid desk potatoes make.  All paid for by taxes often leveled on families working two jobs just to make the rent.  That's the tip of the iceberg compared to the billions that go to contractors who are heavy donors to those lawmakers and senior officials and to transfer payments to reliable voters for those lawmakers.
That's the system that you defend...
No, it is not. Almost all of those executive branch agencies are unconstitutional, and I frequently say so.
A large majority of the contracting done by the government is also unconstitutional.

I am not defending them nor have I ever called them legitimate functions of government.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #26 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:32am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 7:52pm:
That's the system that you defend, though and you advocate use of force in order to gain compliance with it.
I advocate the system of government that the authors of the Federalist Papers said the Constitution would create, and I understand that it can't exist without legal taxation.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #27 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:09am
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That's the system that you defend, though and you advocate use of force in order to gain compliance with it.
I advocate the system of government that the authors of the Federalist Papers said the Constitution would create, and I understand that it can't exist without legal taxation.
Then why are you so reluctant to acknowledge that you advocate the initiation of force to collect those taxes?

  
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #28 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:47am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:09am:
Then why are you so reluctant to acknowledge that you advocate the initiation of force to collect those taxes?



I guess a conversation on this forum doesn't need to be constructive but it doesn't hurt if one is sometimes. And so let's make this one constructive at least.

You're rejecting the idea of rehab for prisoners. Even though you put conditions on the concept that would make sure it couldn't work. Yet that concept would be directly addressing your issue of paying taxes.

All I want to say about that is that it's only one of hundreds of different ways to reduce your tax load.

Not suggesting that Canada employs all those possilbe way, but to say that we likely do use many more than your country and so get more for less.

I think that the people on this board are fed up and so they have chosen libertarianism as an answer. That tells me that they are halfway there to making some wise and better decisions than the Dem and the Repub followers. 

Think about it and let's talk about your ideas. Just make sure your ideas could be possible and be part of reform.

In a nutshell, you're going to find that 'I' at least, am not in favour of force to collect taxes. I'm interested in eliminating taxes to some point so force will be required less frequently.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Tax Advocates: Would You Personally Aim a Gun at Your Neighbor . . .
Reply #29 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:06pm
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rehab for prisoners. Even though you put conditions on the concept that would make sure it couldn't work.
My only condition is that the people who determine that a violent offender is rehabbed enough to be released agree to have that rehabbed person live right next to them.  Do you have another standard in mind by which we could judge that a person is truly rehabbed?  I'm all ears.
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Yet that concept would be directly addressing your issue of paying taxes.
Meaning that once we started releasing all those rehabbed prisoners, the savings would be passed on in the form of lower taxes?  Not quite accurate on several levels:

1)  Unless the prisoner is truly reformed, any savings from not incarcerating them would be eaten up by more police work to re-arrest, re-try and re-imprison after he re-offends.  Not to mention the costs of hospital and funeral expenses for his victims following release after a failed rehab.

2)  Even for those prisoners who are successful after release, the government is highly unlikely to pass on the savings to the tax payers.  Based on past behavior, their most likely move would be to find other ways to spend all that "extra" money.

Ok, just two levels really.  Not "several."


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Think about it and let's talk about your ideas. Just make sure your ideas could be possible and be part of reform.
The problem is that you have never met a libertarian idea that you thought could be possible and part of reform.  Unless it's an idea that already fits in with the American left's ideas, like ending the death penalty and criticizing American adventurism abroad (when there's a Republican in the WH).


  
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