Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée? (Read 104 times)
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 789
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Nov 9th, 2017 at 8:50pm
Print Post  
Surprisingly (to me anyway) "libertarian tax advocate" is not an oxymoron.  Who knew?

Anyway . . .

Corvée (French: [kɔʁve] ( listen)) is a form of unpaid, unfree labour, which is intermittent in nature and which lasts limited periods of time: typically only a certain number of days' work each year. Statute labour is a corvée imposed by a state for the purposes of public works.
Corvée - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvée

Would that be acceptable?  That one day per week, each person be required to work on government projects at some level?  That would be a good way to maintain roads, every statist's favorite example of why taxes on everyone for everything are vital and not a singe one can be reduced by a single penny. 

Somehow, I think libertarian tax advocates are going to object to a corvée.  I'm not sure what justification they will use to say that taking large fractions of people's earnings is fine but taking their labor directly is evil.  Probably just some variation of "that's different!" 

If a dentist, for example, is paying 20% of his earnings in taxes (if he has a really good accountant) which is one fifth, they're basically working for the government every Tuesday already, right?  Instead of the cash why not make him come to the welfare office and drill and fill all day?  Or open his shop and let the dolees come to him?  Brought there by Lyft drivers working their corvée of course.

It could be different days for everyone or heck every Tuesday could be work for your government day.  To be enforced by shylocks and their muscle guys working their own corvées  since it seems libertarian tax advocates want people to be physically forced to pay taxes but are squeamish to do it themselves.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5039
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #1 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:21am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 8:50pm:
Somehow, I think libertarian tax advocates are going to object to a corvée.  I'm not sure what justification they will use to say that taking large fractions of people's earnings is fine but taking their labor directly is evil.  Probably just some variation of "that's different!" 


They'll say it's inefficient, because now you have to train the molecular biologist to work a bobcat. I say that's a strawman and what we have now is less efficient anyway.

But honestly it's much more fair than what we have now.

1) No moneysucking bureaucrats. The worst we'll have is people whose corpies (sorry, French word... must... butcher) are easy versus others whose corpies are insanely labour-intensive. There's not really too much inequity you can squeeze into eight hours, though.

2) A fair, flat tax, finally. Everyone giving the same amount. No rich lobster-gobblers using every trick in all the books to avoid it all, and no welfare parasites getting free rides, either.

And imagine: An end to the government job bloat! Think about it; if it doesn't need to be done, a job doing it probably won't be invented. Corpies are a much more limited, real resource than easily-printable money; they represent real man-hours. So there aren't going to be government employed paintsniffers making six figures by judging the quality of paint fumes.

I like this for the same reason I like community service for traffic tickets or real punishments instead of lawsuits even for civil wrongs. Rich people don't care about the traffic tickets and keep endangering others, and poor people don't care if they get sued and keep endangering others. Is it fair that a rich person effectively isn't allowed to keep an icy driveway because some moneygrubber will be sniffing about for a lawsuit and slip? But a poor person doesn't have to care?

For both of these problems, just increase their corpies. Plus to the community, plus to people paying for prisons since they'll pay less, plus to the legal system (no more expensive suing), and instant magic-wand style equality. Everyone has to worry the exact same amount about doing something wrong.

Disclaimer: Of course forced service is wrong. My post was from a practical perspective and ignores morality.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 789
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #2 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:44am
Print Post  
Quote:
They'll say it's inefficient, because now you have to train the molecular biologist to work a bobcat. I say that's a strawman and what we have now is less efficient anyway.
You're right, they will say that.  Even though I specifically specified that a dentist would do dental work for his corvee, a Lyft driver would drive, etc.  I did that because I know that the "libertarians" on here are very much into the concept of 'from each according to his ability.'

Quote:
But honestly it's much more fair than what we have now.

1) No moneysucking bureaucrats. The worst we'll have is people whose corpies (sorry, French word... must... butcher) are easy versus others whose corpies are insanely labour-intensive. There's not really too much inequity you can squeeze into eight hours, though.

2) A fair, flat tax, finally. Everyone giving the same amount. No rich lobster-gobblers using every trick in all the books to avoid it all, and no welfare parasites getting free rides, either.

And imagine: An end to the government job bloat! Think about it; if it doesn't need to be done, a job doing it probably won't be invented. Corpies are a much more limited, real resource than easily-printable money; they represent real man-hours. So there aren't going to be government employed paintsniffers making six figures by judging the quality of paint fumes.

I like this for the same reason I like community service for traffic tickets or real punishments instead of lawsuits even for civil wrongs. Rich people don't care about the traffic tickets and keep endangering others, and poor people don't care if they get sued and keep endangering others. Is it fair that a rich person effectively isn't allowed to keep an icy driveway because some moneygrubber will be sniffing about for a lawsuit and slip? But a poor person doesn't have to care?

For both of these problems, just increase their corpies. Plus to the community, plus to people paying for prisons since they'll pay less, plus to the legal system (no more expensive suing), and instant magic-wand style equality. Everyone has to worry the exact same amount about doing something wrong.

Disclaimer: Of course forced service is wrong. My post was from a practical perspective and ignores morality.
Right, you ignored morality for the sake of discussing the practicality.  Unfortunately, many of our fellow posters ignore reality because 'but I want stuff!'

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 22054
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #3 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:21am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 8:50pm:
Surprisingly (to me anyway) "libertarian tax advocate" is not an oxymoron.  Who knew?

Anyway . . .

Corvée (French: [kɔʁve] ( listen)) is a form of unpaid, unfree labour, which is intermittent in nature and which lasts limited periods of time: typically only a certain number of days' work each year. Statute labour is a corvée imposed by a state for the purposes of public works.
Corvée - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvée

Would that be acceptable?  That one day per week, each person be required to work on government projects at some level?
For the most part, libertarians think "government projects" are unconstitutional...

Libertarians who agree that government should protect our nation, our lives, our property and our liberty are willing to pay taxes for those purposes, but not for "government projects".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 22054
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #4 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:24am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 7:44am:
I did that because I know that the "libertarians" on here are very much into the concept of 'from each according to his ability.'
I don't like your implication. Of course it's clear that the "libertarians" who like Marxist precepts aren't really libertarians, but you seem to imply that libertarians who approve of legal taxation for legitimate purposes must also be Marxists... Was that your intention?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 789
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #5 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:32am
Print Post  
Jeff Wrote:

Quote:
For the most part, libertarians think "government projects" are unconstitutional...

Libertarians who agree that government should protect our nation, our lives, our property and our liberty are willing to pay taxes for those purposes, but not for "government projects".


Really?  Not even roads?  Who should pay for those?
 
Quote:
I did that because I know that the "libertarians" on here are very much into the concept of 'from each according to his ability.'
I don't like your implication. Of course it's clear that the "libertarians" who like Marxist precepts aren't really libertarians, but you seem to imply that libertarians who approve of legal taxation for legitimate purposes must also be Marxists... Was that your intention?


What is taxation if not "from each according to his ability?"  Surely you don't advocate taxing people with no means to pay and applying the same physical force you would advocate for people who can pay but refuse to, do you?  Assuming you would not favor taxing people who don't have the ability to pay but you would favor taxing people who do have the ability to pay, then you indeed believe in "from each according to his ability" regardless of where the phrase originated.

If you believe in more taxes for people with more money and other property, then that is even more of FEATHA.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 22054
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #6 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:40am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:32am:
Really?  Not even roads?  Who should pay for those?
 



There are many proposals from libertarians for privatizing roads and other infrastructure. Here's some thoughts-

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/highway-aggravation-case-priva...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 22054
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #7 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:45am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:32am:
What is taxation if not "from each according to his ability?"
That type of taxation is called "progressive" taxation. Legal taxes in the U.S. cannot be "progressive".

Certainly, people without incomes don't pay any taxes on income, because they don't have any, just as people who don't own real property don't pay property taxes. But the limitations on both those types of taxation, that Indirect taxes must be uniform and Direct taxes must be apportioned prevent them from being "progressive".


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5069
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #8 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:15am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 9:32am:
Jeff Wrote:


Really?  Not even roads?  Who should pay for those?
 

What is taxation if not "from each according to his ability?"  Surely you don't advocate taxing people with no means to pay and applying the same physical force you would advocate for people who can pay but refuse to, do you?  Assuming you would not favor taxing people who don't have the ability to pay but you would favor taxing people who do have the ability to pay, then you indeed believe in "from each according to his ability" regardless of where the phrase originated.

If you believe in more taxes for people with more money and other property, then that is even more of FEATHA.



It's an interesting idea and North Korea does it sometimes.

What you're suggesting is already working with the tax system. Instead of having to go out and work on a road gang (whatever) I pay taxes to have somebody do the work for me.

If I want to work off my tax debt then there are probably ways of doing it partially at least. You could too. Maybe some libertarians do because it would be perhaps the only way they would get to not pay taxes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ahhell
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1305
Joined: Sep 21st, 2016
Re: Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Reply #9 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:26am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 8:21am:
For the most part, libertarians think "government projects" are unconstitutional...

Libertarians who agree that government should protect our nation, our lives, our property and our liberty are willing to pay taxes for those purposes, but not for "government projects".
Doesn't that depend on what government and what government project you are talking about?

States have extremely broad authority to engage in all sorts of projects.  Constitutionally, they can do anything that the constitution does not forbid them to do.  I support the right of states to choose which projects they think they ought to engage in.  Experiments in democracy and all that. 

Anyrate, back to the question.  With the caveat that it is currently unconstitutional, I would feel the same about a corvee as I do the draft.  I support making full citizenship a choice and imposing responsibilities and duties upon those that choose to be full citizens that they would not otherwise be required to do.  So, a corvee could be part of that. 

With out a choice though, it is immoral, a form of slavery and yes slavery is more immoral than theft so a corvee is worse than a tax.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Libertarian Tax Advocates: Would You also Advocate a Corvée?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy