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burnsred
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How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:00pm
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I owe Don_G a better answer on this one than I've been giving him.  My answer isn't "ready for prime time" which is part of the reason I'm on this forum - to learn and grow.

So I'd like to hear from other self-described libertarians about whether this is all an exercise in philosophical daydreaming about a Utopia that will never happen, or whether we could actually bring it about.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #1 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:33pm
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It can't. It represents such a power shift from the redistributionist majority to the rich super-minority that people in any numbers would never vote for it, be willing to work for it, or make any sacrifices for it.

When you change a system, work needs to be done. That's if you do it non-violently of course. And here's the caveat of "it can't be done" - yes it can, though illegal violence and currently illegal private armies, including terrorism. The super-rich can buy armies and attack the US government, who are so impotent they can't even punish actual criminals.

Peacefully, however, no. It simply requires too much time and effort for the tiny minority of people who would benefit from libertarianism to be enough to make it happen. And without the excess profit of force (which I'll explain later) it will simply never be a good investment to buy all the labour involved.

This doesn't mean libertarianism isn't right; it just means there's too much wrong for it to ever work.

To explain a little bit about the excess profit of force, imagine that two people each want what the other has. One has corn, and another has chickens. It is very unlikely that the excess of what each has is so great that it is of no consequence to give it away, but if this is the case, a pure profit transaction can occur. Each person gives up nothing he even prefers to keep and makes a pure gain. Because this is so unlikely, and because successful force is always a pure gain, force has an excess profit inherent in its very nature, assuming of course that people don't generally initiate force unless they can win. (Desperate force does not have excess profit inherently.) In other words, because you don't have to give the other guy anything, you get more by killing than by trading.

I'm also going to go into the fact that even the rich super minority, who like to whine and cry that they're forced to wrongly give away ludicrous sums of money, actually benefit from the lack of libertarianism. Otherwise, they would have to buy immense private armies to keep the poor from banding together and robbing them. The concentration of wealth we see, however morally right it is and however morally right an even greater disparity would be, is completely unnatural and would never ever happen in nature. By the time you have three times as much as the average guy, you become a positive expected value for two poor people to rob. You can buy a soldier, and pay him an average amount, but you can't buy two or you're just poor again. You either have a substandard soldier who will lose one-on-one to one of the people attacking you, or you have a competent soldier who will beat them, and therefore is going to cost more than those people make.

It's just maths, really. Even in this extreme redistributionist world, a powerful centralised government benefits even the rich super-minority better than the libertarianism they pretend to want.

Once again, this does not make libertarianism morally wrong. Maths can't do that. It can, however, prove why it'll never happen.
  

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Don_G
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #2 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:50pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
I owe Don_G a better answer on this one than I've been giving him.  My answer isn't "ready for prime time" which is part of the reason I'm on this forum - to learn and grow.

So I'd like to hear from other self-described libertarians about whether this is all an exercise in philosophical daydreaming about a Utopia that will never happen, or whether we could actually bring it about.



There are some realities that can be realized in the libertarian agenda burnsred, but libertarians simply must stay within the bounds of that which is possible.

There are so many examples worth talking about if they can agree to that prerequisite.

Smaller government? Yes, within reasonable limits
Taxation? Yes, if the notion of getting rid of income tax is abandoned and then the ideas aren't taken to the extreme

Hopefully some of them will mention others and start to discuss those issues one by one with some sense of sanity.

This forum can't continue to tolerate the skychief and his wild imaginings any longer. He's caused the forum to tread water ever since he started on it.

Thanks for introducing the invitation to get down to work!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #3 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:33pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:50pm:
This forum can't continue to tolerate the skychief and his wild imaginings any longer. He's caused the forum to tread water ever since he started on it.


That's untrue. He's one of the forum's better posters, along with Tom, you just antagonise him.

Tom has the best veiwpoints, but Skychief is actually willing to defend and discuss his opinions a little more where Tom mainly just posts links and articles.

Sky is former military. He's not going to respond to "on my terms or not at all" very well. The military is a hierarchical social structure wherein dominance is hard-earned. It's a different world. You earn respect, rather than simply growling the meanest growl, or parroting the most dominance-associated opinions.

I don't intend to insult you but I do intend to be truthful: The behaviours that confer dominance in a non-military world do not confer dominance in a military world and may even be interpreted as signs of weakness and aggression.

It can cause misunderstandings.
  

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Don_G
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #4 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:33pm:
That's untrue. He's one of the forum's better posters, along with Tom, you just antagonise him.

Tom has the best veiwpoints, but Skychief is actually willing to defend and discuss his opinions a little more where Tom mainly just posts links and articles.

Sky is former military. He's not going to respond to "on my terms or not at all" very well. The military is a hierarchical social structure wherein dominance is hard-earned. It's a different world. You earn respect, rather than simply growling the meanest growl, or parroting the most dominance-associated opinions.

I don't intend to insult you but I do intend to be truthful: The behaviours that confer dominance in a non-military world do not confer dominance in a military world and may even be interpreted as signs of weakness and aggression.

It can cause misunderstandings.


I get it Oppo, I get it. It's you and the Chief BFF. Thank dog it's not me!
  
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #5 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:46pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:44pm:
I get it Oppo, I get it. It's you and the Chief BFF. Thank dog it's not me!


Nope, I just happen to actually read and retain the bulk of what goes on around here.

Dissident used to accuse me of "white knighting" for Ruby, another of the forum's better posters.

I do the same for anyone unfairly accused of anything.

The only one I'm BFF's with is justice.
  

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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #6 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 3:42pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
I owe Don_G a better answer on this one than I've been giving him.  My answer isn't "ready for prime time" which is part of the reason I'm on this forum - to learn and grow.

So I'd like to hear from other self-described libertarians about whether this is all an exercise in philosophical daydreaming about a Utopia that will never happen, or whether we could actually bring it about.

Utopia will never happen unless God's Kingdom returns to earth. Don't hold your breath...

Maximizing individual liberty in a free civil society is what we are trying to accomplish. The ideas and policies of our original Constitution are the best starting point known.

Edit: Sorry you wanted opinions from the self-described libertarians, not self described classic liberals like me...

Did you like there answers best?
  
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Jeff
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #7 - Nov 11th, 2017 at 4:34pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:46pm:
The only one I'm BFF's with is justice.
"Social justice" you mean? I'll hold the common law up against "social justice" any time.
  
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #8 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 8:05pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
...I'd like to hear from other self-described libertarians about whether this is all an exercise in philosophical daydreaming about a Utopia that will never happen, or whether we could actually bring it about.


A libertarian "Utopia" can only work in a very small population.  For libertarianism to work, everyone needs to accept the concept of self-ownership. If just a handful of people dissent, they will inevitably seek political power and expand the scope and reach of the government.   As government extends its control and influence, the individual loses liberties.  There's simply no avoiding it. 

In a nutshell:

Liberty/Freedom will always be inversely proportional to the size of government.

Libertarianism works great on a ship at sea.  The "government" is the Captain and the XO.  That's it.

There are no special-interest lobbyists trying to get perks from the Captain.  No taxes. No re-distribution of wealth.  Everybody does his/her job to the best of his/her ability, because the wellness of the ship requires it. 

The better people get along, the more pleasant the cruise will be.

The Opposition wrote on Nov 11th, 2017 at 2:33pm:
That's untrue. He's one of the forum's better posters, along with Tom, you just antagonise him.

Tom has the best veiwpoints, but Skychief is actually willing to defend and discuss his opinions a little more where Tom mainly just posts links and articles.

Thanks, Oppo!  The check's in the mail.   Smiley
  
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burnsred
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Re: How Can Libertarianism be Realistically Implemented?
Reply #9 - Nov 12th, 2017 at 10:28pm
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This forum can't continue to tolerate the skychief and his wild imaginings any longer. He's caused the forum to tread water ever since he started on it.
Actually, I've come to the conclusion that people such as you and Jeff who either advocate that the U.S. become as socialist as Europe but with perhaps more emphasis on permissiveness (modern liberals) or who only advocate a smaller government under our current system rather than a true libertarian government (classical liberals) are the biggest impediments to the success of libertarianism.  Not only by taking up space on this forum which is intended for libertarianism to be discussed but also that  you take up nearly the entire national political conversation in the United States. 

Jeff can be rehabilitated, I think.  By that I mean that someday I might welcome him as a neighbor.  Don_G., you, on the other hand, I'm afraid will likely have to be simply eliminated.





Juuuuust kidding!



  
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