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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax (Read 379 times)
burnsred
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The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Nov 12th, 2017 at 9:41pm
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It would be completely sufficient to fund the reasonable and even the constitutional functions of government.  According to one of its proponents, Henry George:


The tax upon land values is, therefore, the most just and equal of all taxes. It falls only upon those who receive from society a peculiar and valuable benefit, and upon them in proportion to the benefit they receive. It is the taking by the community, for the use of the community, of that value which is the creation of the community. It is the application of the common property to common uses. When all rent is taken by taxation for the needs of the community, then will the equality ordained by Nature be attained. No citizen will have an advantage over any other citizen save as is given by his industry, skill, and intelligence; and each will obtain what he fairly earns. Then, but not till then, will labor get its full reward, and capital its natural return.


John Adams also said:

Ground-rents, so far as they exceed the ordinary rent of land, are altogether owing to the good government of the sovereign, which, by protecting the industry either of the whole people, or of the inhabitants of some particular place, enables them to pay so much more than its real value for the ground which they build their houses upon… Nothing can be more reasonable than that a fund, which owes its existence to the good government of the state should be taxed peculiarly, or should contribute something more than the greater part of other funds, towards the support of that government.


It may be a little confusing since the word "rent" is used in the economic sense of the value obtained from the use of land.  In a free market the amount of money a landowner can get for the use of his land is a good indicator of that value and that money is known in the informal sense as "rent."  But, economically speaking, there is rent even when a landowner operates a business on his own land rather than leasing land from someone else.  Marx called the difference between what a landowner pays workers to grow crops and what the landowner is paid for his crops "rent" so it has different definitions under different economic schools of thought.

That being said, the only reason anyone is able to claim ownership of land is that the government says they own it and enforces that ownership.  That is the "peculiar and valuable benefit" that George spoke of.  By "peculiar" he meant what we would call "unique." 

Therefore if a government taxes the value of the land (prior to improvements), it is not taxing wealth created by the work of an individual but rather value created by government setting artificial boundaries on land.  That land was not created by work, but rather was created long ago by forces of nature.  This tax can also be called a fee for the peculiar and valuable benefit of land ownership.


A person who builds or buys a boat and fishes on the ocean or on an unowned body of water should be able to sell his work product without government demanding an unearned cut.  A person who pays rent to a landowner should be able to manufacture products (including crops) and sell them without government demanding a "taste." 

Certainly the workers who work the land or the nets on the boat or the factory benches should not have their often meager wages stolen by a government who rattles its guns as its only justification for the theft. 


Hopefully that will clear up any confusion in regards to my "Can government exist without theft by taxation" thread.  I had already spoken about a single tax so I thought it would be clear.  Hubris on my part.



  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #1 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:52am
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The idea in free societies is that government provides a service by recording ownership of land.

It was (and is) Kings and other Sovereigns who granted some of "their" land to some of their subjects.

That said, taxes on land are held in the U.S. to be Constitutionally Direct and must be apportioned. They are still taxes. Why you suddenly say that Direct taxes are not theft when you have maintained for so long that all taxation is theft is beyond me.

BTW, this quote from Henry George-

"It falls only upon those who receive from society a peculiar and valuable benefit, and upon them in proportion to the benefit they receive. It is the taking by the community, for the use of the community, of that value which is the creation of the community. It is the application of the common property to common uses."-

Implies that ownership of land is a privilege granted by "the community", so that taxing the value of "the community's" gift is no more than taking from the "common property of the community" for the "common uses" of the community.

Far from being libertarian, this is pretty much pure Marxism.
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #2 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 10:24am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:52am:
The idea in free societies is that government provides a service by recording ownership of land.

It was (and is) Kings and other Sovereigns who granted some of "their" land to some of their subjects.
Which fits in completely with my assertion that ownership of land is an artificial construct of government.

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That said, taxes on land are held in the U.S. to be Constitutionally Direct and must be apportioned. They are still taxes. Why you suddenly say that Direct taxes are not theft when you have maintained for so long that all taxation is theft is beyond me.
As I said, I had already talked about the fairness of the single tax.  It was my mistake to think that readers were remembering everything I said in the past when reading my current statements.  But I do reserve the right to change my mind about things.  As I've said several times, I came to this forum to grow, not to reinforce my pre-existing beliefs.


Quote:
BTW, this quote from Henry George-

"It falls only upon those who receive from society a peculiar and valuable benefit, and upon them in proportion to the benefit they receive. It is the taking by the community, for the use of the community, of that value which is the creation of the community. It is the application of the common property to common uses."-

Implies that ownership of land is a privilege granted by "the community", so that taxing the value of "the community's" gift is no more than taking from the "common property of the community" for the "common uses" of the community.

Far from being libertarian, this is pretty much pure Marxism.
No, because Marx advocated that the community (government) "take back" the land since land ownership is a sham.  Under Marxism, land is a means of production and therefore belongs to the people (government).

George's point is best illustrated by comparing two factory owners.  One's factory is located on land that he leases from a landlord and the other's factory is located on land that he inherited from his ancestors or bought from people who inherited the land from their ancestors.  None of them created the land through work.  The only reason that one factory owner is not paying "rent" is that the government at some point arbitrarily decided that he owns it.

Government should make those arbitrary decisions because private ownership of land is of huge benefit to all people who benefit from production so it can fairly be called "socially responsible."  But land ownership derives from government and depends on government to be perpetuated.    

Therefore, a tax on that value of the rent is not theft.


  
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Don_G
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #3 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:43pm
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Why all the heavy emphasis on land. Many people will go through their lives these days not owning any land.

A tax on the resources necessary to purchase the land makes much more sense and will tax everybody according to their ability to pay.

Providing it's a fair tax that's based more on a percentage of that which a person earns, and only allows exemptions or deductions that are fair and equitable. Allow the people to have the first 20 or 30K tax free in order to help them provide food and shelter for their families.

I think it's fair to say that you are promoting taxation that won't interfere with the profit the 1 or 2% of the very wealthy make. Thereby, out of necessity of running the country, off the backs of the middle class and the poor.

The issue worth discussion is why would any middle class American insist on continuing that abuse of the system?
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #4 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:49pm
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Providing it's a fair tax that's based more on a percentage of that which a person earns,
How high of a percentage of a person's earnings can be taxed (at all levels of government combined) and still be fair?
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #5 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:06pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:49pm:
How high of a percentage of a person's earnings can be taxed (at all levels of government combined) and still be fair? 


There is no upper ceiling but I know of one that is imagined to be one for those of your persuasion and that is 'point A' on the Laffer curve. (sometimes designated otherwise)

That of course is the point at which lowering taxes begins to pay off in higher productivity of the supply side. Or, when lower taxes provide more tax income to government.

I will propose that would be somewhere around 85% for the purpose of this discussion but I'm anxious to hear you prove it's something different,  whether higher or lower.
  
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #6 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:13pm
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A person's salary and wages should never be taxed, imo.  A National Sales tax makes a lot more sense.  A "good" tax is uniform, and doesn't require 7000 pages of tax code b.s.  -  it just needs to be a number.  6% or 9%,  whatever,  but it needs to be universal.  This number can always be adjusted.

No exemptions. No write-offs, No deductions. No tax returns. No need for CPA tax-preparers. No Tax fraud.

Taxes are paid at the register.   Rich people will continue to pay nore in taxes because they buy expensive things.  Poor people dont buy expensive things, so the amount they pay in taxes will be very low.

Its so simple. Why hasn't anyone proposed this yet?   Undecided
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #7 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:14pm
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How high of a percentage of a person's earnings can be taxed (at all levels of government combined) and still be fair?


There is no upper ceiling
Really?  So, not even 99.9% is too much?

Quote:
I will propose that would be somewhere around 85% for the purpose of this discussion but I'm anxious to hear you prove it's something different,  whether higher or lower.
So you can just "propose" but I have to "prove" something different?  Just out of curiosity, have you ever had people willing to debate you under terms like that?

Since the government appears determined to take money at gunpoint from earners with the claim that they will use that money for "your own good" I would propose that ten percent is the upper limit at which that claim is the least bit plausible.  Taking any more than that is by definition more harmful than any good that will supposedly done by the government.  More than ten percent is to perpetuate and grow government, not to benefit the tax payers.




  
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Don_G
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #8 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:52pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:14pm:
Really?  So, not even 99.9% is too much?


Maybe?

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So you can just "propose" but I have to "prove" something different?  Just out of curiosity, have you ever had people willing to debate you under terms like that?


Yes, and it went on for months on the supplysideforum.com

One person, actually a Texan, raised the point to be 85% and challenged the others to show it was something different. I'm not giving you 85% based on much of anything but I will provide some basis if you become willing to get involved. It's what you're asking me to do isn't it?

Quote:
Since the government appears determined to take money at gunpoint from earners with the claim that they will use that money for "your own good" I would propose that ten percent is the upper limit at which that claim is the least bit plausible.  Taking any more than that is by definition more harmful than any good that will supposedly done by the government.  More than ten percent is to perpetuate and grow government, not to benefit the tax payers.


Very well, then 10% is your starting point for point A on the Laffer curve. I'll say that  it has to be much higher than that based on past practice of what works and what doesn't.

And the actual proof of it not working could be Ronald Reagan's raising of taxes to make it work. I use Reagan as a reference because he was one of the original proponents of the supplyside theory and the Laffer curve that proves the theory. Reagan expressly raised taxes in order to find point A.

Now you can do some homework and find just how close to 85% Reagan had to go!

In any case, 10% has never been shown to be enough and so I reject it. How high are you willing to go in order to find some evidence of a percentage that actually worked?

I might be able to come down a bit if you can show some reason for me doing so.





  
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Don_G
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #9 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:57pm
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http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/06/ronald-reagan-raised-taxes-11-times-the-real-s...

Rand Paul can be quoted as saying that when Ronnie took over taxes were as high as 70%.
  
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