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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax (Read 378 times)
burnsred
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #20 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 2:48pm:
Sorry, no. People claimed ownership of land before there were governments. The land I own I bought from a private party who owned it before I did. The only involvement of government was to register the transfer of ownership from him to me.


Trace it back and you will find that a government somewhere first decided which person would be allowed to claim that land as private property, either by selling or giving the land to the new owner.

I'm not saying that is wrong.  On the contrary, it is highly socially responsible to convert unused land into private property so there is an incentive to use it productively.  But that can only be done by a government or a quasi-government such as a group of landowners banding together to protect each other's land.

So you see, I'm no anarchist.  There is one very legitimate government function to be performed by the holders of the monopoly on legitimate use of force.  But it should rightfully be financed by a tax on the land itself. 

Even with that legitimate tax, I don't support initiation of force against people who don't pay the single-tax.  The government can simply tear up their deed and not enforce the ownership.


  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #21 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:28am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:32pm:
Trace it back and you will find that a government somewhere first decided which person would be allowed to claim that land as private property, either by selling or giving the land to the new owner.
You're talking about Kings and other such tyrants who claimed to own everything, including the people? You believe our rights were granted by Tyrants?

I believe differently. I believe the power to freely exercise our rights was wrested from tyrants.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #22 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:30am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:18pm:
Well of course they would!  They do that under any tax system.  All the more reason to keep taxes and government power to a bare minimum.
Yes, and don't forget the need to make an apportioned tax on the value of land the only tax permitted by the Constitution.

BTW, have you figured out how much I will owe on my $100,000 worth of land?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #23 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:34am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 8:32pm:
Even with that legitimate tax, I don't support initiation of force against people who don't pay the single-tax.  The government can simply tear up their deed and not enforce the ownership.


I have my deed. What you are saying is the government could simply make it impossible for me to sell my property... Would they proclaim publicly that my property was legally un-owned and make it fair game for seizure by anyone who wanted it? You don't think that would be initiating force against me for non-payment of taxes?
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #24 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 9:19am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:34am:
I have my deed. What you are saying is the government could simply make it impossible for me to sell my property... Would they proclaim publicly that my property was legally un-owned and make it fair game for seizure by anyone who wanted it? You don't think that would be initiating force against me for non-payment of taxes?
Yes, I'll grant you that land owners hold the deeds so government wouldn't be tearing anything up.  You'll have your deed and you can sell your property to anyone who wants to buy is as long as you don't commit fraud by telling them or implying by omission that the government still recognizes your ownership.

Think of the government as a fence builder.  You contract for someone to build a fence around your property and they will be happy to do it.   Unless you say, "since payment is voluntary, I choose not to pay."  Then they simply stop the process of building your fence.  No need to make announcements, you just won't have a physical fence.  Don't pay the government and you won't have a legal fence.  All they need do is make a note on whatever document records your deed.

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Yes, and don't forget the need to make an apportioned tax on the value of land the only tax permitted by the Constitution.
Agreed.  Best way for the federal  government to be funded is through state governments.

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BTW, have you figured out how much I will owe on my $100,000 worth of land?
You know my 10% rule of thumb, so somewhere between $0.00 and $10,000.00 would be my range.  But elected lawmakers will decide and you have expressed much faith in the democratic process so I'm sure it will be fair.

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Trace it back and you will find that a government somewhere first decided which person would be allowed to claim that land as private property, either by selling or giving the land to the new owner.

You're talking about Kings and other such tyrants who claimed to own everything, including the people? You believe our rights were granted by Tyrants?


Only the right to own land which is not a natural right.  I don't know where your land is located.  Mine is in Texas so six different national governments have had jurisdiction over that land, not counting ancient pre-columbian civilizations.  The King of Spain, King of France, Emperor of Mexico, President of Texas, President of the United States and the President of the  Confederate States all claimed authority over it.  Somewhere along the line one of those tyrants gave/sold the right of ownership to may great(n)-grandfather and it was passed down to me.

Can you tell me how you came to own land with no government involvement? 


  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #25 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 10:26am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 9:19am:
Agreed.  Best way for the federal  government to be funded is through state governments.

You know my 10% rule of thumb, so somewhere between $0.00 and $10,000.00 would be my range.  But elected lawmakers will decide and you have expressed much faith in the democratic process so I'm sure it will be fair.

I'm certain the national government has no power to make state governments it's tax collectors.

I have never expressed faith in the "democratic process" beyond saying its a way to include the interests of the people in our federal system by having Representatives elected democratically. (Not Senators, just Representatives.)

I assumed that spending will continue as is, so I asked, "How much of the three trillion to be collected will I owe on my $100,000 worth of land?"

If you really want to be a good advocate for this tax, you should have a much more concrete answer than "probably no more than 10%".
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #26 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 10:28am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 9:19am:
Only the right to own land which is not a natural right.
To accept this, I would have to accept that I have no natural right to own any property.
That is not true.



  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #27 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 10:37am
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burnsred wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 9:19am:
I don't know where your land is located.  Mine is in Texas so six different national governments have had jurisdiction over that land, not counting ancient pre-columbian civilizations.  The King of Spain, King of France, Emperor of Mexico, President of Texas, President of the United States and the President of the  Confederate States all claimed authority over it.  Somewhere along the line one of those tyrants gave/sold the right of ownership to may great(n)-grandfather and it was passed down to me.




I took issue with the contention that land ownership was granted by "the community" and that "the community" originally owned the land. Your land was never communally owned, ever, unless it was specifically titled that way.

The Republic of Texas did not claim ownership of the land that Texans won from Mexico, it claimed political jurisdiction. That is different from what the Tsar of All the Russias claimed, he claimed ownership.

Everything I know leads me to believe that the Republic of Texas, and then the State of Texas, recognized property rights that had been previously acknowledged by the Republic of Mexico, and that Mexico had recognized property rights that had been granted by the Spanish Crown and later sold and resold.

Other than Kings, that's what governments do, recognize and protect property rights.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #28 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 12:30pm
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If you own lots of land you don't want a land tax. If you own a car you don't want higher gas tax. If you make lots of money then you don't want income tax.

That's how normal people think because it's only about everybody wanting to keep all their money.

But pseudo-libertarians don't seem to be normal because they have been brainwashed into thinking that income inequality is just fine and it should be pushed even further.

So the good news for the pseudo-libertarian is, that's exactly what is happening and will happen with Trump's tax plan.

And all the rest is just pseudo-libertarian wetdreams. Interesting to listen to though!
It has to have something to do with adhering to the American way? Upward mobility and all that? Is it? What make you people tick?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Single Tax is the Only Non-theft Tax
Reply #29 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 12:55pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 14th, 2017 at 12:30pm:
But pseudo-libertarians don't seem to be normal because they have been brainwashed into thinking that income inequality is just fine and it should be pushed even further.

Any taxation will distort the economy to some extent, but more taxing means more distortion, which is why it is necessary, in order to be fair, to strictly limit government and keep it small.

As far as income inequality goes, it is a fact of reality that no amount of crying can change. If you level everything out exactly, in no time at all some hardworking ambitious person will start to get ahead again. Libertarians understand this, we just want a level legal playing field, where government doesn't help some people and punish others. A tax system that is neutral.
  
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