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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned? (Read 245 times)
burnsred
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Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Nov 12th, 2017 at 10:41pm
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Not asking whether you are comfortable with discrimination.  No logical person is comfortable with the idea of treating individuals differently because of their race or other factors not related to merit. 

But do we all agree that an even larger wrong is done when government uses its monopoly on force to require that we not discriminate in our business and personal lives?

  
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Jeff
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #1 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:00am
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In the limited Constitutional system established by the classical liberals that created America, no power is granted to the government to do such things. Freedom of conscience and freedom of association are thereby guaranteed. It is unconstitutional for our government to force any sort of association between individuals.

Free people are free to treat others differently for whatever reasons they have, or for no reason.

Edit: Sorry, you wanted libertarian views and there I went again providing a classical liberal view, which according to you stands in the way of establishing libertarianism.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #2 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 10:12am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 9:00am:
In the limited Constitutional system established by the classical liberals that created America, no power is granted to the government to do such things. Freedom of conscience and freedom of association are thereby guaranteed. It is unconstitutional for our government to force any sort of association between individuals.

Free people are free to treat others differently for whatever reasons they have, or for no reason.

Edit: Sorry, you wanted libertarian views and there I went again providing a classical liberal view, which according to you stands in the way of establishing libertarianism.
No problem.  There are areas of overlap.

So you disagree with the constitutional protections against discrimination?
  
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ahhell
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #3 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 10:25am
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Discrimination by government agencies should be banned.   The Government's role keeping black people down is often ignored by progressive but a lot of the current disparity in wealth among racial groups is the direct result of actions by the VA and FHA to limit access of blacks to home ownership in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

I would allow most businesses to discriminate however they want.  I probably wouldn't let health care providers do so, but I'm not sure about that. 

  
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Don_G
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #4 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:34pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 12th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
Not asking whether you are comfortable with discrimination.  No logical person is comfortable with the idea of treating individuals differently because of their race or other factors not related to merit. 

But do we all agree that an even larger wrong is done when government uses its monopoly on force to require that we not discriminate in our business and personal lives?



I for one definitely do not agree.

But it's a good conversation to have because it leads us into the very guts of true libertarianism, as opposed to pseudo-libertarianism.

It's as simple as, until libertarians learn to not discriminate agaisnt others then they will have to be forced to comply with the laws of the land that uphold decency and justice.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #5 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:40pm
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Don_G wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:34pm:
I for one definitely do not agree.

But it's a good conversation to have because it leads us into the very guts of true libertarianism, as opposed to pseudo-libertarianism.

It's as simple as, until libertarians learn to not discriminate agaisnt others then they will have to be forced to comply with the laws of the land that uphold decency and justice.
You left out "and the American way" Clark Kent . . .

Just out of curiosity, in your world in which government stops discrimination (except for approved discrimination such as affirmative action), how much force are you willing for the government to apply in order to stop it?  Do you see a limit to that or is it a case of "whatever it takes?"

What about when this force that is applied to prevent discrimination has unintended consequences?  I know of at least two employers, one large and one medium size who are afraid of being sued or fined for not hiring blacks but are even more afraid of being sued or fined if they hire a black who later claims discrimination.  This fear is based on past events in which such lawsuits were successful and the employers lost millions of dollars.  Neither employer has ever been sued for not hiring blacks, perhaps because one hires many females and one hires many Hispanics. 

Should these employers do the moral thing, which to hire based on merit or should they respond to governmental pressure as it is currently applied through the courts and hire no blacks at all?  Would you advocate some kind of tort reform to alleviate this situation?




  
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Don_G
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #6 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 1:20pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:40pm:
You left out "and the American way" Clark Kent . . .

Just out of curiosity, in your world in which government stops discrimination (except for approved discrimination such as affirmative action), how much force are you willing for the government to apply in order to stop it?  Do you see a limit to that or is it a case of "whatever it takes?"

I don't accept your definition of lawful and orderly discrimination entails but I can still answer.

Whatever it takes for government to maintain law and order! If that takes a massacre of 'neonazis' or 'libertarians' turnded violent or 'leftists' turned violent, then guns, hand grenades, rocket launchers, or even bombing from 30,000 feet is fair play.

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What about when this force that is applied to prevent discrimination has unintended consequences?  I know of at least two employers, one large and one medium size who are afraid of being sued or fined for not hiring blacks but are even more afraid of being sued or fined if they hire a black who later claims discrimination.  This fear is based on past events in which such lawsuits were successful and the employers lost millions of dollars.  Neither employer has ever been sued for not hiring blacks, perhaps because one hires many females and one hires many Hispanics. 


Again, you make my case for me when you say that their fear is based on past events. Your country has a racism problem and some of the methods to deal with it could be unjust. Some will obviously be effective and likely are effective in lessening the influence of the KKK in your southern states. Some people will die unjustly but if a balance is maintained between white/blacks and white/Hispanics, then who could ask for better?

Of course eliminating racism is the endgame ans would be the 'better' too.

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Should these employers do the moral thing, which to hire based on merit or should they respond to governmental pressure as it is currently applied through the courts and hire no blacks at all?  Would you advocate some kind of tort reform to alleviate this situation?


I have no idea at all what should be done in those examples. I think that the overall racism problem needs to be dealt with first and then that particular problem will be minimized. To put it bluntly burnsred, those swine who do nothing to discourage racism deserve their comeuppance. I'm assuming they did nothing positive to help to eliminate racism. Your description of the situation leads me to that conclusion. Clarify that further if you like?

But we do know there's no racism problem in Texas don't we!





  
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burnsred
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #7 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 2:32pm
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I have no idea at all what should be done in those examples.
I have noticed that your philosophy breaks down when applied to specific examples.

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I think that the overall racism problem needs to be dealt with first and then that particular problem will be minimized. To put it bluntly burnsred, those swine who do nothing to discourage racism deserve their comeuppance. I'm assuming they did nothing positive to help to eliminate racism. Your description of the situation leads me to that conclusion. Clarify that further if you like?
To which swine do you refer, sir?  The swine who filed frivolous lawsuits claiming discrimination, the swine who awarded those swine millions or the swine who decided it could not afford to hire any more litigious people?

What about the Hispanics and women who make up the bulk of the workforces in those two organizations?  Are they swine for working at organizations which discriminate and really does little to hide it?

Are blacks who accept affirmative action slots knowing a white person was discriminated against also swine?  I already know that I am a swine ("a swine?") since I do nothing to discourage racism being that it is self-punishing.


  
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Don_G
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #8 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 2:42pm
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burnsred wrote on Nov 13th, 2017 at 2:32pm:
To which swine do you refer, sir?  The swine who filed frivolous lawsuits claiming discrimination, the swine who awarded those swine millions or the swine who decided it could not afford to hire any more litigious people?


I am referring to the swine sir, who are responsible for the rampant racism that is alive and well in Texas.

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What about the Hispanics and women who make up the bulk of the workforces in those two organizations?  Are they swine for working at organizations which discriminate and really does little to hide it?


My first reaction would be to say NO. How could they be responsible for bowing to the demands of the greedy when they are trying to feed, cloth, and house their families?

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Are blacks who accept affirmative action slots knowing a white person was discriminated against also swine?



Offhand, I couldn't place any blame on those black people. The state of Texas has promoted the need for affirmative action to begin with. By now you must know the only way of eliminating the need.

How do other states deal with the hiring of people who aren't white? I can tell you that Canada, as far as I know, doesn't need any affirmative action laws.

(as far as I know) (that should motivate a racist)

Burnsred, If you don't have a racist problem then this is an easy hurdle for us to get over together. There's no misunderstanding on my part when it involves the topic of racism and problems arising from it.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Does Every Libertarian Agree that Discrimination Should Not be Banned?
Reply #9 - Nov 13th, 2017 at 2:55pm
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Thelma said:
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I am referring to the swine sir, who are responsible for the rampant racism that is alive and well in Texas.
By doing what?  Do you include the employers who cannot afford to risk being bankrupted by lawsuits after they hire blacks? 


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My first reaction would be to say NO. How could they be responsible for bowing to the demands of the greedy when they are trying to feed, cloth, and house their families?
While employers are always bachelors who spend their money at the track?


Quote:
Offhand, I couldn't place any blame on those black people. The state of Texas has promoted the need for affirmative action to begin with. By now you must know the only way of eliminating the need.
Shrink government so that the cries for racial quotas fall on powerless ears?

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How do other states deal with the hiring of people who aren't white? I can tell you that Canada, as far as I know, doesn't need any affirmative action laws.
You admit so few non-whites, I can't imagine it comes up very often.

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Burnsred, If you don't have a racist problem then this is an easy hurdle for us to get over together. There's no misunderstanding on my part when it involves the topic of racism and problems arising from it.
Since affirmative action is the only racism that is still legal in the U.S., how do you propose that our government eliminate it?

  
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