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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek... (Read 491 times)
Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #10 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 3:50pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 9:42am:
Once he brought up Somalia, you could dismiss anything else he says on the subject.  Rule by thugs is not a libertarian ideal and only fools or liars think otherwise.

There's argument to be made about Kansas but his Somalia example indicates he won't have it honestly. 

I recommend you drop the class, if you can't, keep your head down and tell him what he wants to hear.  Tell your class mates that he's full of shit though. 

An alternative view on Kansas:
https://www.cato.org/blog/three-lessons-tax-defeat-kansas

Thanks, I'd previously read some truth about Kansas, but nothing that in depth and comprehensive. Good link.
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #11 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 5:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 3:50pm:
Thanks, I'd previously read some truth about Kansas, but nothing that in depth and comprehensive. Good link.


It's been easy so far to convince  pseudo-libertarians to reject supply side economics out of embarrassment. But they're going to get cornered into picking it up again. They're rightists and they can't avoid it.

We've been over the Kansas experiment for the chief's sake and you were part of it and are fully aware of how it was a failure.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #12 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 8:51pm
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merkelstan wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 3:28am:
Statists will always say any problem is due to not enough state intervention or direct control.


To be fair, libertarians do the same thing. When a freer system fails, it's because it wasn't free enough.

Nobody on either side is willing to have a scientific test of merit. Everyone just points to the other side's failures as proof (when there aren't control groups involved!!!) and writes off their side's failures either due to extraneous variables or because it wasn't really representative of that system.

"Of course the Soviet Union failed! That wasn't real socialism."

"Of course Somalia is a Hell-hole! That's not real libertarianism."

Maybe if no government degrades to thug rule, people need to think twice about advocating that there should be no government.
  

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DontTread44
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #13 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 1:48am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 8:51pm:
"Of course the Soviet Union failed! That wasn't real socialism."

"Of course Somalia is a Hell-hole! That's not real libertarianism."

Maybe if no government degrades to thug rule, people need to think twice about advocating that there should be no government.


Also consider libertarianism is more minarchism than anarchism. Minarchists make up most of the party.

I think we really have to question Somalia a little further as well– is there really no state presence whatsoever? Is it a genuine free-for-all with no limits on trade, etc?

It seems a state still exists to some extent: https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #14 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 6:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 8:51pm:
To be fair, libertarians do the same thing. When a freer system fails, it's because it wasn't free enough.

What libertarians point out is, when the scale slides toward the human good of liberty, more wealth is created, and when the scale slides toward central control and the restriction of liberty, the creation of wealth diminishes.

And libertarians aren't just talking about material wealth. The increase in wealth in free societies is also seen in art, literature, science and philosophy.

But yes, when Venezuela crashed and burned, it was because it wasn't free enough. It was always more free than North Korea, but it wasn't free enough to allow people to create a free economy that was resilient and growing. At one time though, Venezuela had a very free economy, and it's people were very prosperous. What happened was that a "socially responsible system" was imposed on the people of Venezuela, which made the economy much less free. Wealth creation slowed and the looting began... It's inevitable.
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #15 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:05am
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DontTread44 wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 1:48am:
Also consider libertarianism is more minarchism than anarchism. Minarchists make up most of the party.

I think we really have to question Somalia a little further as well– is there really no state presence whatsoever? Is it a genuine free-for-all with no limits on trade, etc?

It seems a state still exists to some extent: https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it
Anything about Somalia newer than 2006? Is it still "stateless and loving it"?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #16 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 11:09am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 8:51pm:
"Of course Somalia is a Hell-hole! That's not real libertarianism."

Maybe if no government degrades to thug rule, people need to think twice about advocating that there should be no government.

Somalia is a Muslim country.  It's a Hell-hole and thug-ruled because of that - not because Liberty was tried and failed.
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #17 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 12:37pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 6:53am:
What libertarians point out is, when the scale slides toward the human good of liberty, more wealth is created, and when the scale slides toward central control and the restriction of liberty, the creation of wealth diminishes.


This is why libertarians are rightists and supplysiders. Until just recently it appears that some libertarians didn't understand what being a supplysider even meant. They should have known what Reaganomics and 'tricke down' meant at least. But it's fallen so far out of popularity that they no longer want to own it.

Quote:
And libertarians aren't just talking about material wealth. The increase in wealth in free societies is also seen in art, literature, science and philosophy.


All fields in which the US has fallen behind. Science being imported from Germany.

Quote:
But yes, when Venezuela crashed and burned, it was because it wasn't free enough. It was always more free than North Korea, but it wasn't free enough to allow people to create a free economy that was resilient and growing. At one time though, Venezuela had a very free economy, and it's people were very prosperous. What happened was that a "socially responsible system" was imposed on the people of Venezuela, which made the economy much less free. Wealth creation slowed and the looting began... It's inevitable.
[/quote]

It can usually be traced to US dirty tricks and interference. When the US is prohibited from completely interfering as is the case in Cuba, the country will flourish regardless of the limited US interference.

The libertarian site, antiwar.com has libertarians who understand this concept and speak out about it. Here's one of the latest examples.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/honduran-election-stolen-eight-years-u-s-backe...

The link says what it's about.

Why are some pseudo-libertarians not understanding this?

And as an aside, North Korea where the jury is still out on their final fate, because US interference has been forbidden in part. Now North Korea has a chance to stand and to demonstrate how the outcome would have been if the US was denied overt aggression and covert aggression in over 37 countries since WW2.  However, it is fair to ask, is it worth it for the people of N.Korea? It was worth it for Vietnam!
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #18 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 6:34pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 12:37pm:
This is why libertarians are rightists and supplysiders. Until just recently it appears that some libertarians didn't understand what being a supplysider even meant.
Who cares? Libertarians know that economic liberty under a rule of law that protects individual rights is a human good, and that central planning and rule by bureaucrats has evil results no matter how you label them.
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #19 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:54am
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Speaking of the evil results of centrally planned economies-

http://thecrux.com/one-dollar-now-buys-103000-bolivars-in-venezuelas-black-marke...
  
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