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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek... (Read 492 times)
Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #40 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 11:55am
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BobK71 wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:30am:
Are you in high school or college?

When you strip away all the jargon of the economics profession, what this ultimately boils down to is whether we have good boundaries WRT property rights.  When the state and its banking elite allies are allowed to slowly and invisibly take wealth from the rest of the population by controlling money and other financial assets, property rights are violated, and the whole basis of society is eroded.  The final result of this erosion includes inequality, addiction, pollution, terrorism and war.


Very true Bob but the very wealthy have never done so well in your country. (the inequality)

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I'm not familiar with the Kansas experiment, but if you apply libertarian economics to an economy that is connected by trade (never mind by a monetary union with the rest of the US!) to what is essentially a global monetary-political imperial system, that libertarian economy will be under disadvantage and be in trouble eventually, if not immediately.  (Switzerland is a mild example.)


You should be aware of it because they've learned a lesson and now they're warning that Trump has done the same thing for the entire country.
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/25/560040131/as-trump-proposes-tax-cuts-kansas-deals...

Over a few years the damage to the country will be enormous. But the Republicans will attempt to disown it, as is obviously being done for Kansas already.

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Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback is notorious for what is known as the Kansas experiment, a bold effort to assert the power of limited government.

In 2012, the Republican governor pushed reforms through the state Legislature that dramatically cut income taxes across the board. Brownback boasted the plan would deliver a "shot of adrenaline" to the Kansas economy.

But the opposite happened.

Revenues shrank, and the economy grew more slowly than in neighboring states and the country as a whole. Kansas' bond rating plummeted, and the state cut funding to education and infrastructure.

  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #41 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 4:10pm
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BobK71 wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:30am:
When you strip away all the jargon of the economics profession, what this ultimately boils down to is whether we have good boundaries WRT property rights.  When the state and its banking elite allies are allowed to slowly and invisibly take wealth from the rest of the population by controlling money and other financial assets, property rights are violated, and the whole basis of society is eroded.  The final result of this erosion includes inequality, addiction, pollution, terrorism and war.

Thank you very much for saying so. It's good to hear people speak truth, and to hear it spoken so well deserves praise.
  
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DontTread44
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #42 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:10pm
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I think what the takeaways are is that, these were not Von Mises/Hayek economic principles, or libertarian principles.

This was more of a republican/rightist tax cut without first cutting spending significantly. Which isn't surprising, because Democrats and Republicans alike refuse to gut their favorite programs, which make up for a lot of wasteful state spending.

Something to consider is most libertarians I've listened to, including the national Libertarian Party, all advocate for repealing the income tax. Kansas did not repeal their state income tax, and states that have (Alaska, New Hampshire, Texas...) are actually much better off than states that haven't.
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #43 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 6:28pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:10pm:
I think what the takeaways are is that, these were not Von Mises/Hayek economic principles, or libertarian principles.

This was more of a republican/rightist tax cut without first cutting spending significantly. Which isn't surprising, because Democrats and Republicans alike refuse to gut their favorite programs, which make up for a lot of wasteful state spending.

Something to consider is most libertarians I've listened to, including the national Libertarian Party, all advocate for repealing the income tax. Kansas did not repeal their state income tax, and states that have (Alaska, New Hampshire, Texas...) are actually much better off than states that haven't.
Florida and Nevada too.
By "better off" you mean they haven't driven the people who live there deep into government obligated debt?
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #44 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 6:59pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:10pm:
I think what the takeaways are is that, these were not Von Mises/Hayek economic principles, or libertarian principles.

This was more of a republican/rightist tax cut without first cutting spending significantly. Which isn't surprising, because Democrats and Republicans alike refuse to gut their favorite programs, which make up for a lot of wasteful state spending.

Something to consider is most libertarians I've listened to, including the national Libertarian Party, all advocate for repealing the income tax. Kansas did not repeal their state income tax, and states that have (Alaska, New Hampshire, Texas...) are actually much better off than states that haven't.

States that have repealed their income tax were able to do it you fool. Those that aren't able to, won't of course.
back to libertarians school where you learn that you don't gut taxes without cutting spending.
  
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DontTread44
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #45 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 9:23pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 6:59pm:
States that have repealed their income tax were able to do it you fool. Those that aren't able to, won't of course.
back to libertarians school where you learn that you don't gut taxes without cutting spending.


You literally just quoted me as saying, "this was more of a republican/rightist tax cut without first cutting spending significantly", and I'm a fool? Calm tf down.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #46 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 1:40am
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merkelstan wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:32am:
You are confusing "free" as in "'free' benefits from the state' for me!" and "free" as in "liberty".

Kansas cut taxes but didn't reduce spending, and then had budget problems:  AND YOU TRY TO CLAIM THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH LIBERTARIANISM?


No. I'm trying to claim that lowering taxes is a libertarian policy.

I try to claim that lower taxes constitutes:

Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 6:53am:
What libertarians point out is, when the scale slides toward the human good of liberty, more wealth is created, and when the scale slides toward central control and the restriction of liberty, the creation of wealth diminishes.


And to be fair, you have a legit case when you say that some libertarian policies (like lower taxes) may need other libertarian policies (less spending) to work properly.

But you can't then also claim that socialists have a monopoly on dismissing the results of their own policies. When they try to claim that some socialist policies isn't enough, and that more government control is needed to make those ones work, you have to recognise this as the same kind of case you make yourself.

My main point was that nobody wants to address the matter scientifically with tests and controls to actually find out which policies do work best.

It's obvious to me that the socialist is only a socialist because he knows socialism gives him some sort of benefit. He'll be either a government crony or some form of a welfare recipient (here including those who can't afford health care, so they want others to pay). He knows on an intuitive level that his desired benefit, while he wants it laid at his own feet for free, is not actually free. It costs the system. Parasites usually take steps to minimise the parasitism of others because they know this. So he believes in his heart that his system won't make anything better for society over the opposing system, because he only selected the policy for the reason that it costs the system more and provides him a greater disproportionate advantage.

It is also obvious to me that every adherent of every political philosophy is doing the same thing.
  

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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #47 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 1:40am:
And to be fair, you have a legit case when you say that some libertarian policies (like lower taxes) may need other libertarian policies (less spending) to work properly.

But you can't then also claim that socialists have a monopoly on dismissing the results of their own policies.
As you know lizard, libertarian philosophy is fundamentally based on minimal government. With minimal government, "policies" of lower taxing and lower spending aren't really necessary. If there is no Department of Education, their is no argument about how much to tax and spend to support it.

Libertarians traditionally have favored sound money, which is not only a means of preserving people's hard earned property, but a means of limiting government borrowing and spending, but, when faced with the reality of fiat money, libertarians don't simply ignore reality, they say "We need to reduce the size and scope of government and leave more of what people earn in their hands, and we must not allow government to burden us or future generations with debt."

Clearly, reducing taxes without reducing spending can't be and isn't a libertarian "policy".
Libertarians can easily see that it leads to debt imposed on people by government spending, which they oppose and recognize as a great harm.

"Progressives" of all stripes refuse to consider the empirical evidence of the failure of their policies and the unintended bad consequences of those policies, no matter how often libertarians point them out.
  
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burnsred
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #48 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 10:45am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:05am:
As you know lizard, libertarian philosophy is fundamentally based on minimal government. With minimal government, "policies" of lower taxing and lower spending aren't really necessary. If there is no Department of Education, their is no argument about how much to tax and spend to support it.

Libertarians traditionally have favored sound money, which is not only a means of preserving people's hard earned property, but a means of limiting government borrowing and spending, but, when faced with the reality of fiat money, libertarians don't simply ignore reality, they say "We need to reduce the size and scope of government and leave more of what people earn in their hands, and we must not allow government to burden us or future generations with debt."

Clearly, reducing taxes without reducing spending can't be and isn't a libertarian "policy".
Libertarians can easily see that it leads to debt imposed on people by government spending, which they oppose and recognize as a great harm.

"Progressives" of all stripes refuse to consider the empirical evidence of the failure of their policies and the unintended bad consequences of those policies, no matter how often libertarians point them out.
Very good points.

Our problem as libertarians is that we are often asked to defend individual parts of our philosophy under the assumption that it is the only part which will be implemented.  "What?  You want to legalize drugs?  How are we going to pay for all the new welfare cases when people can buy meth at the 7/11?"

Ideally, libertarianism would be implemented all at once, preferably in a new and small nation.  In the U.S., we would have to implement it a step at a time so the challenge would be to find libertarian policies that will work even if the rest of the policies are statist. 

Trump is actually doing well with that by simply eliminating unnecessary regulations on business.  No one will miss them because they are counterproductive and contradictory.  Legalizing drugs and gambling would have immediate positive benefits without affecting other areas of government.  The welfare/tax system will be tougher to deal with.

  
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SkyChief
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #49 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:36am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 10:45am:
Ideally, libertarianism would be implemented all at once, preferably in a new and small nation. 

Smiley   Smiley   Smiley

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In the U.S., we would have to implement it a step at a time so the challenge would be to find libertarian policies that will work even if the rest of the policies are statist... Legalizing drugs and gambling would have immediate positive benefits without affecting other areas of government.  The welfare/tax system will be tougher to deal with.

Yep. With our government as large/powerful as it is, the march back to liberty will be very difficult and take many election cycles.  Statists will resist at every opportunity, and make our task even tougher.
  
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