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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek... (Read 487 times)
Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #50 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 12:46pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
You literally just quoted me as saying, "this was more of a republican/rightist tax cut without first cutting spending significantly", and I'm a fool? Calm tf down.



No, not at all. The advocating of cutting income tax that libertarians are pushing has little or nothing to do with a state's wealth that would give them the ability to cut income taxes.

Or in other words, it's largely impossible in the other 95% of the states. And besides, there's nothing even close to being equitable enough to replace income taxation. It's a pipedream being dreamed up politically propagandized fools.

Now you settle down and stand your ground with me on this debate. I'm taking dead aim at pseudo-libertarian nonsense.
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #51 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 12:57pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 10:45am:
Very good points.

Our problem as libertarians is that we are often asked to defend individual parts of our philosophy under the assumption that it is the only part which will be implemented.  "What?  You want to legalize drugs?  How are we going to pay for all the new welfare cases when people can buy meth at the 7/11?"

Ideally, libertarianism would be implemented all at once, preferably in a new and small nation.  In the U.S., we would have to implement it a step at a time so the challenge would be to find libertarian policies that will work even if the rest of the policies are statist. 

Trump is actually doing well with that by simply eliminating unnecessary regulations on business.  No one will miss them because they are counterproductive and contradictory.  Legalizing drugs and gambling would have immediate positive benefits without affecting other areas of government.  The welfare/tax system will be tougher to deal with.



You're promoting supplyside economics whether you know it or not. Pseudo-libertarians are scrambing to distance themselves from that sort of economic policies but they can't. They will continue to betray the truth.

So Jeff says: Quote:
What libertarians point out is, when the scale slides toward the human good of liberty, more wealth is created, and when the scale slides toward central control and the restriction of liberty, the creation of wealth diminishes.


That's it in a nutshell even though Jeff doesn't understand what he's saying either. He's just repeating an old feel goog mantra of the right. In reality he's promoting the Laffer curve that tells him that cutting taxes raised government tax revenue.

This pseudo-libertarian nonsense is far too unsophisticated to ever work. But then, we already know it can never work for a country anyway don't we!

The good thing about this conversation is that we're getting into a real discussion on economic policy and that's going to be enlightening for libertarians at least.
  
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burnsred
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #52 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 1:40pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 12:46pm:
No, not at all. The advocating of cutting income tax that libertarians are pushing has little or nothing to do with a state's wealth that would give them the ability to cut income taxes.

Or in other words, it's largely impossible in the other 95% of the states. And besides, there's nothing even close to being equitable enough to replace income taxation. It's a pipedream being dreamed up politically propagandized fools.

Now you settle down and stand your ground with me on this debate. I'm taking dead aim at pseudo-libertarian nonsense.
The question should never be, "Can the government afford to cut taxes?"  The question should be "Can the taxpayers afford a tax increase?"  Government has the ability to cut taxes just as much as it has the ability to increase spending.  Don't feel bad, you're not the only one promoting the fallacy that it is "impossible" to have a tax cut unless we "pay for it."  All statists do that.

When taxes are increased either by an actual increase in percents or by inflation pushing people into higher tax brackets for the same real income or when the deficit is increased because more and more people are "entitled" to transfer payments, statists don't ask, "Hey, how we gonna pay for that?" or "Can the taxpayers afford this?"  They just allow it to happen and turn a blind eye to it until someone has the audacity to suggest that working people aught to keep more of what they earn instead of turning over larger and larger chunks of their paychecks to be spent as those who don't earn see fit.


When an increase in spending is proposed or is automatic because of an increase in the number of people "entitled" to money from the government,
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #53 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 2:03pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 1:40pm:
The question should never be, "Can the government afford to cut taxes?"  The question should be "Can the taxpayers afford a tax increase?"  Government has the ability to cut taxes just as much as it has the ability to increase spending.  Don't feel bad, you're not the only one promoting the fallacy that it is "impossible" to have a tax cut unless we "pay for it."  All statists do that.


Good point! But aren't you being inconsistent with the libertarian's beliefs? Hasn't it been clearly stated here that you can't do tax cuts without cutting spending? Or do you mean something else when you say 'pay for it'?

Quote:
When taxes are increased either by an actual increase in percents or by inflation pushing people into higher tax brackets for the same real income or when the deficit is increased because more and more people are "entitled" to transfer payments, statists don't ask, "Hey, how we gonna pay for that?" or "Can the taxpayers afford this?"


A very long sentence that needs reading twice, but it seems that you are promoting the opposite of your first paragraph. Anyway, I think it's better to not attach a 'statist' label to people. Most people are or are not to varying degrees. For instance, I'm certainly not guilty of that which you accuse statists. At least try to consider the meaning of socially responsible government. It's a lot broader than what has been rejected on this forum.

Quote:
  They just allow it to happen and turn a blind eye to it until someone has the audacity to suggest that working people aught to keep more of what they earn instead of turning over larger and larger chunks of their paychecks to be spent as those who don't earn see fit.


If that is a sincere comment then we're very much on the same page. The pure thrust of my criticism has always been on income inequality in your country and that is smack on addrssing your comments.


Quote:
When an increase in spending is proposed or is automatic because of an increase in the number of people "entitled" to money from the government,


An incomplete sentence but I'll try to make sense of it.

'proposed it is' ?

Still not getting your intent so explain if you like.

I think the major difference in our thinking is that I always promote better for the ordinary people. This has to come at the expense of the very wealthy. I place my emphasis more on that, as opposed to directly talking about taxation. I see that inequity as the prime reason why people like you and *me are being taxed more than we should be. You seem to see it as more government abuse of the tax dollar.

You are being quite consistent with supplyside philosophy. In effect you're saying, cut taxes and that will create more tax revenue.

*not me literally.
  
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burnsred
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #54 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 2:53pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 2:03pm:
Good point! But aren't you being inconsistent with the libertarian's beliefs? Hasn't it been clearly stated here that you can't do tax cuts without cutting spending? Or do you mean something else when you say 'pay for it'?


You are confused by my writing because you do not read it carefully enough. 

"you can't do tax cuts without cutting spending" is a statist idea, not a libertarian one.  I pointed that out in my first paragraph.  Read before you reply, Don. 



Quote:
For instance, I'm certainly not guilty of that which you accuse statists. At least try to consider the meaning of socially responsible government. It's a lot broader than what has been rejected on this forum.


A socially responsible government is first and foremost one that does not over tax its citizens.

Quote:
In effect you're saying, cut taxes and that will create more tax revenue.
No, I never said that.  I said cut taxes and people will be able to keep more of their own money.  That's more than enough reason to cut them. 

Creating more revenue for the government to spend is absolutely not my goal.  It is true that cutting taxes has historically increased revenue and people who want to raise rather than cut them usually know that.  But that only proves the obvious which is that their true goal is to punish successful people, not to raise money for the government.
 





  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #55 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 3:00pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 2:53pm:
You are confused by my writing because you do not read it carefully enough. 

"you can't do tax cuts without cutting spending" is a statist idea, not a libertarian one.  I pointed that out in my first paragraph.  Read before you reply, Don. 


I hear you. And it's too complicated for the others to understand anyway. One of your sentences wasn't a sentence and I said so in good faith.




Quote:
A socially responsible government is first and foremost one that does not over tax its citizens.


I think I can buy that. And that doesn't mean it's not worth exploring the reasons why the 'citizens' are overtaxed.

The 'citizens' in this sense not being the 1% but the other 99%.





  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #56 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 5:38pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 2:53pm:
"you can't do tax cuts without cutting spending" is a statist idea, not a libertarian one.
I'm confused... Statists want more taxes and more spending, they don't want to cut anything except our rights and liberty.
  
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #57 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 6:09pm
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Burnsred Wrote:

Quote:
"you can't do tax cuts without cutting spending" is a statist idea, not a libertarian one.


Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 5:38pm:
I'm confused... Statists want more taxes and more spending, they don't want to cut anything except our rights and liberty.
Yes, in reality more spending and more taxes are exactly what they want.  When they say, "How are you going to pay for a tax cut" what they really mean is "I don't want a tax cut."  They think "how will you pay for it" is a sure argument winner because they think that cutting spending is literally impossible.  No joke.  Impossible.  That's why a poster above said, "It's largely impossible in 95% of the states," meaning that you can't cut taxes without a plan to make up for the lost revenue because cutting spending is "impossible."

"Impossible to cut spending" is the "settled science" of tax and spenders.


 
  
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #58 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:55pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 6:09pm:
Burnsred Wrote:


Yes, in reality more spending and more taxes are exactly what they want.  When they say, "How are you going to pay for a tax cut" what they really mean is "I don't want a tax cut."  They think "how will you pay for it" is a sure argument winner because they think that cutting spending is literally impossible.  No joke.  Impossible.  That's why a poster above said, "It's largely impossible in 95% of the states," meaning that you can't cut taxes without a plan to make up for the lost revenue because cutting spending is "impossible."

"Impossible to cut spending" is the "settled science" of tax and spenders.


 


Don't be silly, everybody wants tax cuts. The problem is, too many Americans want tax cuts as their kneejerk reaction to getting a bill for goods and services. A lot of the stupid asses don't understand that they have to pay for the luxuries government has provided them.

You stupid fukking pseudo-libertarians need to pack your bags and go live out in the wilderness where you can pretend to have your own country of six or seven people. You'll live happily ever after with no taxes to pay.

You'll even be free to create your own god if the need arises. Whattta bunch of wankers! As if?
  
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burnsred
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #59 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:16pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:55pm:
Don't be silly, everybody wants tax cuts. The problem is, too many Americans want tax cuts as their kneejerk reaction to getting a bill for goods and services. A lot of the stupid asses don't understand that they have to pay for the luxuries government has provided them.

You stupid fukking pseudo-libertarians need to pack your bags and go live out in the wilderness where you can pretend to have your own country of six or seven people. You'll live happily ever after with no taxes to pay.

You'll even be free to create your own god if the need arises. Whattta bunch of wankers! As if?
Drinking and posting, I see . . .

  
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