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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek... (Read 485 times)
The Opposition
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #60 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:05am:
As you know lizard, libertarian philosophy is fundamentally based on minimal government. With minimal government, "policies" of lower taxing and lower spending aren't really necessary. If there is no Department of Education, their is no argument about how much to tax and spend to support it.

Libertarians traditionally have favored sound money, which is not only a means of preserving people's hard earned property, but a means of limiting government borrowing and spending, but, when faced with the reality of fiat money, libertarians don't simply ignore reality, they say "We need to reduce the size and scope of government and leave more of what people earn in their hands, and we must not allow government to burden us or future generations with debt."

Clearly, reducing taxes without reducing spending can't be and isn't a libertarian "policy".


Then by the same logic, just as a for example, banning alcohol without enforcing it can't be seen as a statist policy.
  

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BobK71
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #61 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:29am
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Don_G wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 11:55am:
You should be aware of it because they've learned a lesson and now they're warning that Trump has done the same thing for the entire country.
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/25/560040131/as-trump-proposes-tax-cuts-kansas-deals...

Over a few years the damage to the country will be enormous. But the Republicans will attempt to disown it, as is obviously being done for Kansas already.


This appears to be an attempt to go cold turkey while a raging drunk -- I'm not surprised that it failed.

Through decades of state-bank distortion of the economy, it is already addicted to the specific set of demand that comes from the distortion.  Cutting that drug off would bring immediate pain, no doubt.

Still, it doesn't mean the distorted condition is good or sustainable.

The trouble is always to find the precise pathway to a cure.  Something akin to this is what they *may* be finally doing now, on a global scale, with monetary reset via cryptocurrencies.
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #62 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:45am
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BobK71 wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:29am:
This appears to be an attempt to go cold turkey while a raging drunk -- I'm not surprised that it failed.

Through decades of state-bank distortion of the economy, it is already addicted to the specific set of demand that comes from the distortion.  Cutting that drug off would bring immediate pain, no doubt.

Still, it doesn't mean the distorted condition is good or sustainable.

The trouble is always to find the precise pathway to a cure.  Something akin to this is what they *may* be finally doing now, on a global scale, with monetary reset via cryptocurrencies.
You are correct about the failure in Kansas, but the cure has been known for a very long time.
Where our "leaders" err is in imagining that they can find a painless cure that will hurt no-one.

Maybe it's because I'm old? I can't see crypto-currency as being actual money. It seems to me to be nothing other than private fiat currency, and I can't imagine why private fiat currency will be better... In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank, so the "notes" they issue are already private fiat currency. That hasn't worked out well.
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #63 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:17pm
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BobK71 wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:29am:
This appears to be an attempt to go cold turkey while a raging drunk -- I'm not surprised that it failed.

Through decades of state-bank distortion of the economy, it is already addicted to the specific set of demand that comes from the distortion.  Cutting that drug off would bring immediate pain, no doubt.

Still, it doesn't mean the distorted condition is good or sustainable.

The trouble is always to find the precise pathway to a cure.  Something akin to this is what they *may* be finally doing now, on a global scale, with monetary reset via cryptocurrencies.


I don't agree on the cold turkey analogy Bob. I think it's an idea that has been proven to be a bad idea and it naturally went wrong.

Supplyside economics has been so thoroughly discredited that nobody tries to promote it anymore. None of the extreme rightists on this forum will even acknowledge it. (assuming they know what it means?)

More innovative twists on SS economics are going to be attempted and I see this as just one more.

At least nobody is trying to shift the blame off Brownback for the Kansas failure. I'm always anxious for a discussion on the issue.
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #64 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 3:42pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:51pm:
Then by the same logic, just as a for example, banning alcohol without enforcing it can't be seen as a statist policy.
What?

No, your illogic won't ever be logical, not even if you drag it's carcass onto the same page as logic.

Making laws and not enforcing them, or only getting them out once in a while to use on special people is sinful and tyrannical.
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #65 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 3:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 3:42pm:
What?

No, your illogic won't ever be logical, not even if you drag it's carcass onto the same page as logic.

Making laws and not enforcing them, or only getting them out once in a while to use on special people is sinful and tyrannical.


"Sinful and Tyrannical" are over the top but at least you didn't stoop to crude insults. This will be the last time I need to bring that to your attention. Thank you!
  
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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #66 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 4:27pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 3:46pm:
"Sinful and Tyrannical" are over the top but at least you didn't stoop to crude insults. This will be the last time I need to bring that to your attention. Thank you!
Probably not, but I have been trying to improve the quality of my insults.
It's difficult.
High minded insults go right over your head. The lizard appreciates them though. It's smarter than you are. Just ask it.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #67 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:44pm
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merkelstan wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:32am:
You are confusing "free" as in "'free' benefits from the state' for me!" and "free" as in "liberty".

Kansas cut taxes but didn't reduce spending, and then had budget problems:  AND YOU TRY TO CLAIM THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH LIBERTARIANISM?


No. I am claiming that statists and libertarians each use the exact same argument to dismiss the results of their failed policies. Each side is also dismissing the other side's dismissals as invalid.

Yes, lower taxes need a commensurate reduction in spending to function. Who would have thought it?

Yes, tough crackdown policies need enforcement and good controls to function. Who would have thought it?

SkyChief wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 10:38pm:
Don_G wrote on Oct 26th, 2017 at 2:08pm:
Thank you. You don't think your health care system is just fine. I don't accept your reasoning but that can become a part of an ongoing debate.

My main argument won't be a surprise to you. The lack of government control over your health care system is the reason why it has failed.

Crap - I just lost 10 IQ points.

Re-calculating....


This is what I'm talking about with every single person having a double standard. Everyone uses this argument. Their policies didn't work because not enough of them were implemented.

I just want to know, is, "Well, this policy failed because this other policy was needed for it to function properly," a valid or invalid case?
  

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Jeff
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #68 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 6:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:44pm:
No. I am claiming that statists and libertarians each use the exact same argument to dismiss the results of their failed policies.
G'mon lizard, in order to have limited government and maximum individual liberty have any measurable result, you have to have a limited government of law that protects rights and otherwise leaves people alone... Where would you say that such a thing currently exists? It doesn't.

Nevertheless, there are places that have much more economic freedom that other places, and the empirical evidence is clear that free people produce more wealth (and science and technology). In places where people are more free socially, they produce more art and literature etc.

The ideas that libertarians promote don't fail, they work. Just because there isn't a place as free as we would like doesn't mean there aren't lots of ways to see the benefits of individual liberty and protected rights.

There are conversely lots of places (virtually everywhere these days) where you can see the clear failure of statist policies.
  
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Don_G
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Re: My economics teacher had this to say about Von Mises and Hayek...
Reply #69 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 2:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 8th, 2017 at 6:45am:
......, you have to have a limited government of law that protects rights and otherwise leaves people alone... Where would you say that such a thing currently exists? It doesn't.


It doesn't exist in the US.

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In places where people are more free socially, they produce more art and literature etc.


You wouldn't be willing to examine how that is true in more socialist leaning countries. But it's true nonetheless.

Quote:
The ideas that libertarians promote don't fail, they work. Just because there isn't a place as free as we would like doesn't mean there aren't lots of ways to see the benefits of individual liberty and protected rights.


You don't know freedom anymore but maybe you did one time. It obviously didn't come with libertarianism because that's never existed.

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There are conversely lots of places (virtually everywhere these days) where you can see the clear failure of statist policies.


Not everywhere but there are places where you can see socially responsible government working for the people. And they're happy about it so it can be proven to be working.
  
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