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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Socially Responsible Capitalism. (Read 1193 times)
Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #10 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 6:23pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:01pm:
...his war to enslave the Confederacy...
Force slave owners to do something they didn't freely choose to do? Shocked

Your choice of terms entertains me.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #11 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:04pm
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burnsred has a really big hard-on about the south losing your civil war. And he's made it pretty clear that he doesn't like black people very much because they were the reason why the south had to be smacked down.

The north should have done a more thorough job and the US would have far less problems today if it had.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #12 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:17pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:04pm:
burnsred has a really big hard-on about the south losing your civil war. And he's made it pretty clear that he doesn't like black people very much because they were the reason why the south had to be smacked down.

I think you're wrong on both counts.

It was people who insisted that black people were the equivalent of livestock and claimed a right to own them as they did any other property. They wanted to expand their system of owning humans across North America. They claimed their right to own property could not be countered by the laws of other states making it illegal to own people. The could take their property with them anywhere they decided to go as free men, making anywhere and everywhere they moved into a de facto slave state.

They are the people who caused the civil war.

Had slave owners simply agreed to stop keeping people as slaves, there would have been no civil war.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #13 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:23pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:17pm:
I think you're wrong on both counts.

It was people who insisted that black people were the equivalent of livestock and claimed a right to own them as they did any other property. They wanted to expand their system of owning humans across North America. They claimed their right to own property could not be countered by the laws of other states making it illegal to own people. The could take their property with them anywhere they decided to go as free men, making anywhere and everywhere they moved into a de facto slave state.

They are the people who caused the civil war.

Had slave owners simply agreed to stop keeping people as slaves, there would have been no civil war.


Who gives a fuk what wankers like you think? Go get high on your narcotics you buy on the street.

Why start now pretending you haven't admitted it?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #14 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:32pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:23pm:
Who gives a fuk what wankers like you think? Go get high on your narcotics you buy on the street.

Why start now pretending you haven't admitted it?

I can see you're almost ready for that adult conversation you keep begging people to engage in with you... Not quite though, you need to try a little harder.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #15 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:38pm
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Burnsred Wrote:

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You are aware that Lincoln allowed slavery to continue in the U.S. so that his war to enslave the Confederacy (or as he would put it, preserve the union)...


Jeff wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:44pm:
Yes, and I believe that's exactly what he felt he had to do.

A Commander in Chief in time of war who did not do his best to win the war would be, in my opinion a traitor.


What?!?!

Are you serious?

So you support slavery if the alternative is that a president would have to use paid labor of free people to produce goods for a war? 

I assume that since you support the permanent enslavement of people who were (or should have been) citizens of the United States to be used as farm animals, you also support the conscription of free citizens to be used as shock troops and cannon fodder?  So you support conscription slavery if the alternative is that a president would have to convince young people to voluntarily join the military? 

Would you also support the re-enslavement of blacks if there were a new secession and the president decided to "preserve the union" and he felt he had to do it?  If not, what's the difference between then and now?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #16 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:44pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:38pm:
What?!?!

Are you serious?


Did I not sound serious? A war over slavery in America was inevitable, unless the slave owners would have agreed to recognize the people they enslaved as people rather than livestock.

The fact that Lincoln was President when Congress declared war obligated him to try to prosecute the war to victory.

Had he not, there would have soon been war over slavery in the territories. In fact, the Confederacy would have been taking military control of territories claimed by the U.S. as a means to protect Confederate slave owners who moved to the territories, which they were doing prior to the Civil War. That's what the fighting in Kansas and Missouri was about.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #17 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:01pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 7:44pm:
Did I not sound serious? A war over slavery in America was inevitable, unless the slave owners would have agreed to recognize the people they enslaved as people rather than livestock.

The fact that Lincoln was President when Congress declared war obligated him to try to prosecute the war to victory.

Had he not, there would have soon been war over slavery in the territories. In fact, the Confederacy would have been taking military control of territories claimed by the U.S. as a means to protect Confederate slave owners who moved to the territories, which they were doing prior to the Civil War. That's what the fighting in Kansas and Missouri was about.
Ok, so why did congress not ban slavery in the states since they were fighting a war to end slavery?  Why not pass the 13th amendment as soon as the southern states seceded and could not object.  Or Lincoln could have included them in the emancipation proclamation and issued it immediately instead of waiting until the war was almost over.

You support treating people like farm animals as long as there is a "good reason?"  Every historic plantation owner and modern human traffic profiteer would say the same.

You know the answer, I don't know why you don't want to say it.  That the Civil War was over slavery is a middle-school idea and the media presents on a middle-school or elementary school level.  People with educations above middle school and who are able to think critically understand that if the goal of the United States was to end slavery, they could have started with Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri and Delaware as soon as the southern states left the union.  With no southern states to object, the 13th amendment could have passed easily as soon the Confederate states seceded.

Come on, Jeff.  I know it's easier to think that one side is pure good and one side is pure evil, but that kind of thinking is always false and it allows government to lead us into destructive wars in which our wealth and children's lives are wasted.


  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #18 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:07pm
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Double post again.  Drat!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #19 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:47am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
Ok, so why did congress not ban slavery in the states since they were fighting a war to end slavery?  Why not pass the 13th amendment as soon as the southern states seceded and could not object.  Or Lincoln could have included them in the emancipation proclamation and issued it immediately instead of waiting until the war was almost over.

You support treating people like farm animals as long as there is a "good reason?"
No, I oppose slavery. And it isn't "treating" people like animals, it's owning people as if they were animals. A distinction I think it's worthwhile to make.

You ask a lot of why questions about Congress and Lincoln at the beginning of the war... I can only answer with my best guesses based on what I know about the political situation at that time.

The people in the North, abolitionists, wanted to end slavery in America, not just in their own states where it was already illegal under state laws. They were working, and fighting, to admit enough Free states to the Union so that a Constitutional amendment banning slavery could pass.

People in and from the slave states were working and fighting to make sure such an amendment would never pass. When they realized that they could not win such a political battle, they left the Union in order to be able to keep their slaves.
Congress was driven by (and largely agreed with) the desires of the people, and after the slave states seceded, the majority of American people favored prosecuting a war. Especially after Fort Sumter was attacked. (View that however you want, I believe people in the Union, and Congress at the time, saw it as an act of war.)

No one in the Free States imagined that a Constitutional amendment to end slavery in the U.S. would have any effect in the C.S.A.

Lincoln understood that the slaves owned in states that had not left the Union were in border states where sentiment for ending slavery was not as strong as in the rest of the U.S. and that declaring those slaves to be free by proclamation could lead to those states seceding and joining the Confederacy, which was seen as counterproductive rather than helpful to the prosecution of the war that had already begun.

Finally, everyone was aware that the Free v. Slave war was already being fought in the territories by private citizens before the war, and knew it was not likely to stop, whether the Union prosecuted the war officially or not, and no one who abhorred slavery (most people in Free states) was willing to allow a slave nation to grow in North America alongside the U.S. when other civilized nations around the world had already banned human slavery.

That's about the best I can do to answer your questions about why what happened happened.
  
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