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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Socially Responsible Capitalism. (Read 1197 times)
Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #30 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 5:45pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:53am:
President Lincoln, the Union congress and presumably the citizens of the northern states fully supported slavery, correct?
No.

I have not heard such a stupid assertion for many years.

It was the people in control of the slave state governments who supported slavery and were determined to preserve it and expand it's geographical extent in America.

They spit in the face of the civilized nations and peoples of the world who had condemned and outlawed slavery. They made a mockery of the idea of America. Americans wanted to fight them.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #31 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 6:01pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 5:45pm:
No.

I have not heard such a stupid assertion for many years.

It was the people in control of the slave state governments who supported slavery and were determined to preserve it and expand it's geographical extent in America.

They spit in the face of the civilized nations and peoples of the world who had condemned and outlawed slavery. They made a mockery of the idea of America. Americans wanted to fight them.
Are you even serious, now?  If "Americans" wanted to fight slave-holding states so badly, why not start with Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri which were much closer than Alabama and Louisiana?

You think Lincoln was lying when he said that if he could preserve the union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?  You really think young white men in New York  in the 1860's were eager to go to Georgia to die in a fight to free black people?  Ever heard of the Draft Riots?  Here's a description:

U.S. President Abraham Lincoln diverted several regiments of militia and volunteer troops after the Battle of Gettysburg to control the city. The rioters were overwhelmingly working-class men, mostly Irish or of Irish descent, who feared free black people competing for work and resented that wealthier men, who could afford to pay a $300 (equivalent to $9,157 in 2017[5]) commutation fee to hire a substitute, were spared from the draft.[6][7]

Initially intended to express anger at the draft, the protests turned into a race riot, with white rioters, predominantly Irish immigrants,[4] attacking black people throughout the city. The official death toll was listed at either 119 or 120 individuals. Conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool, commander of the Department of the East, said on July 16 that "Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it."[8] 


Notice how our great freedom loving American presidents keep having to send troops to attack their own citizens? 

You're calling me stupid for not playing along with the fantasy of the Civil War being a great crusade to end the horrors of slavery?  Give me a break . . .


  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #32 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:27pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 6:01pm:
Are you even serious, now?  If "Americans" wanted to fight slave-holding states so badly, why not start with Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri which were much closer than Alabama and Louisiana?


Because by going to and fighting in Kansas and Missouri, they had a chance to prevent more slave states from being admitted to the Union, thereby gaining enough free states to amend the Constitution and prohibit slavery without war.

That was not to be. Slaveholders insisted on war to preserve their "right" to property in humans.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #33 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:29pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 6:01pm:
Are you even serious, now?  If "Americans" wanted to fight slave-holding states so badly, why not start with Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri which were much closer than Alabama and Louisiana?

You think Lincoln was lying when he said that if he could preserve the union without freeing a single slave, he would do it?  You really think young white men in New York  in the 1860's were eager to go to Georgia to die in a fight to free black people?  Ever heard of the Draft Riots?  Here's a description:

U.S. President Abraham Lincoln diverted several regiments of militia and volunteer troops after the Battle of Gettysburg to control the city. The rioters were overwhelmingly working-class men, mostly Irish or of Irish descent, who feared free black people competing for work and resented that wealthier men, who could afford to pay a $300 (equivalent to $9,157 in 2017[5]) commutation fee to hire a substitute, were spared from the draft.[6][7]

Initially intended to express anger at the draft, the protests turned into a race riot, with white rioters, predominantly Irish immigrants,[4] attacking black people throughout the city. The official death toll was listed at either 119 or 120 individuals. Conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool, commander of the Department of the East, said on July 16 that "Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it."[8] 


Notice how our great freedom loving American presidents keep having to send troops to attack their own citizens? 

You're calling me stupid for not playing along with the fantasy of the Civil War being a great crusade to end the horrors of slavery?  Give me a break . . .




He didn't call you stupid, he was talking about your stupid assertion. And it was!

You're pretty far out with your ideas on slavery and slaves. But probably about central to Klan thinking. It begins to form impressions after a while burnsred.

It walks like a duck, ...............
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #34 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:33pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 7:27pm:
Because by going to and fighting in Kansas and Missouri, they had a chance to prevent more slave states from being admitted to the Union, thereby gaining enough free states to amend the Constitution and prohibit slavery without war.

That was not to be. Slaveholders insisted on war to preserve their "right" to property in humans.
I don't know what to tell you Jeff.  I showed you the quote from Lincoln himself in which he said the war had nothing to do with slavery.

Where do you get your information?  How can you say that the Americans wanted to fight the slaveholding states but that it was the slaveholding states who insisted on a war?

As soon as the southern states seceded, the Union had more than enough free states to amend the constitution to end slavery or anything else they wanted.  Why didn't they?


  
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SkyChief
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #35 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:09pm
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Recieved a flier in the mail today:

Dear California Energy user:

We understand everyday expenses can change and how these changes can affect some households more than others. That's why rates like our California Alternate Rates for Energy (CARE) can help make a difference!

If your household meets the current income qualifications below or someone in your household participates in any of the public-assistance programs listed on the enclosed Rate Discount Application, we encourage you to apply for CARE today!

Remember, your CARE discount will be applied to your electric bill month after month, so the the savings really add up!

You may also qualify for FREE appliances and more!


Now, this is some Socially Responsible Capitalism we can support.  Sure, these reduced rates are subsidized by artificially high rates to the consumer. (Me)  But at least we have the option of opting out from the grid.

Self-ownership is still intact.  We can install solar panels, and charge SoCalEdison for any energy that our solar panels pump back to the grid.   

Sadly, in the long run, SoCalEdison will lose, and be be forced out of business.  But hey - that's how the free market works!  Bad business decisions result in failure... Unless the government can step in and bail them out!!   Grin
  
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #36 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:17pm
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duplicate... sorry.  Embarrassed
  
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Thumper
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #37 - Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:46pm
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Slavery was a horrible thing. It still is. But it had very little to do with the start of the civil war. It was about money. The north could not survive without the money they took from the south. As a matter of fact slavery didn't become an issue until France and Brittain were about to enter the war  in support of the South. So Lincoln made a tactical  decision. Not only were those two foreign powers about  go enter the war. But it was unpopular with many citizens in the north.

So back to this tactical decision of Lincolns. During talks between the south France and Brittain they came to an agreement to slowly end chattel slavery. Those two countries had already outlawed slavery. And wanted the south to end it as well. But all three knew if it were ended without preparing for the economic impact of the loss of free labor the souths economy would crumble. So they came up with options to end it in phases. Once the north found out those two countries were likely to enter the war in support of the South he decided to make the focus of the war ending slavery. He regained the support of northern citizens, and when the south refused to end slavery outright and immediately they lost the support of the French and British politicans. Lincolns gamble paid off.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #38 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:18am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 8:33pm:
I don't know what to tell you Jeff.  I showed you the quote from Lincoln himself in which he said the war had nothing to do with slavery.

Where do you get your information?  How can you say that the Americans wanted to fight the slaveholding states but that it was the slaveholding states who insisted on a war?

As soon as the southern states seceded, the Union had more than enough free states to amend the constitution to end slavery or anything else they wanted.  Why didn't they?


Lincoln's objective was to preserve the Union. In his mind, that's what was important and why Congress had declared war and he was trying to win it.

Abolitionists, who were a powerful enough voice to influence most state governments in Free states, wanted to end slavery in America. They most certainly wanted to stop slavery from spreading into the territories, which is why they were moving to Kansas and Missouri and fighting the pro-slavery people there- before the civil war.

Slave states had been threatening to secede for years, over the issue of admitting more slave states to the Union.

When Lincoln was elected with enough of a majority in Congress to prevent new slave states from being admitted to the Union, (i.e. give the Abolitionists what they wanted) several slave states did secede, and South Carolina attacked Fort Sumter.

As I said, a Constitutional amendment outlawing slavery in the U.S. would have had no effect in the CSA, and might have pushed some border states that had not seceded into leaving the Union.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #39 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 8:32am
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Thumper wrote on Dec 5th, 2017 at 11:46pm:
Slavery was a horrible thing. It still is. But it had very little to do with the start of the civil war. It was about money. The north could not survive without the money they took from the south.
I'm sure I don't know what you mean by the North "taking money" from the South.

I do know that the secession of slave states was directly related to their desire to maintain their "right" to own people as property. It had been a burning political issue across America for at least a decade prior to the beginning of the war. A "compromise" had been reached in Congress, where for every free state admitted  in the territories, there would also be a slave state admitted. Texas was admitted as a slave state, and promptly claimed what is now New  Mexico and Arizona as part of Texas and therefore slave. The contention by slave state governments was that anyplace where slavery existed, it could not be prohibited, and that if new states were to be created from territory claimed by slave holding Texas, they would be required to be slave states.
There were claims of "popular sovereignty" saying that only the people of a territory had the right to decide whether to make slavery legal in the States they were trying to create... Which is why people were killing each other in Kansas and Missouri (which were not yet states)... They were fighting over slavery in America.
  
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