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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Socially Responsible Capitalism. (Read 1203 times)
Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #60 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:50am
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Thumper wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 2:48am:
Anyway. It seems this topic went off topic as soon as it started.

I would like to hear Dons definition of socially responsible capitalism. Cause everything that I've read about it looks heavily regulated and eventually turns to cronyism.

Pure capitalism is already socially responsible. But it requires that everyone in that society be responsible for themselves.

Please keep in mind that all we have ever experienced in the US is crony-capitalism.
I'll put this back at the top so Don_G can't miss it.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #61 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:59am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:35am:
You need to learn a little.
https://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_slav.html

Article I, Sect.2, clause 3 refers to slaves as counting toward the apportionment of Representatives.

That was part of the ugly compromise I mentioned. The slave states would not join the union without it. Nobody else liked it.

The only other mention of slavery in the Constitution is to abolish it and forbid it.
Actually, it was "mentioned" in Article I, Section 9, Clause 1.  By "mentioned," I mean that it was specifically preserved and not just slavery, but the importation of slaves:


Article I

. . .

Section 9

1: The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.


It also forbade free states from freeing slaves who escaped from their masters and made it to what they thought would be freedom:

Article IV

. . .

Section 2

. . .

3: No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.


You may want to avoid sounding so arrogant when you "correct" others.  You never know when you will run into someone who knows just a tad bit more than you do.


Quote:
As I have previously mentioned, the presence of the three world superpowers of the time (all monarchies that hated the idea behind America) all had strong presences in the Americas. The Founders of America feared that without the slave states, they would not have been strong enough to remain in existence for long at all. So they accepted the ugly compromise.
It was an "ugly compromise" for slaveholders to accept slavery?  Sounds like they got exactly what they wanted - slavery guaranteed by the constitution.

Bottom line for you and the founders and other slaveholders is that you and they may have some misgivings about slavery but you and they support it as a means to an end.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #62 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:08am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:59am:
It was an "ugly compromise" for slaveholders to accept slavery?
No, it was an ugly compromise for the rest of America to have to permit slavery to continue in order to get the slave states to join the union.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #63 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:16am
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Still off topic, but an interesting chronology regarding slavery.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-slavery/chronology-who-banned-slavery-when-id...

You'll hopefully notice red that the U.S. banned the slave trade quite some time before Lincoln.
That's because Americans wanted to end slavery, but all they could accomplish with the realpolitik of the time was to abolish the trade in slaves.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #64 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:51am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:16am:
Still off topic, but an interesting chronology regarding slavery.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-slavery/chronology-who-banned-slavery-when-id...

You'll hopefully notice red that the U.S. banned the slave trade quite some time before Lincoln.
That's because Americans wanted to end slavery, but all they could accomplish with the realpolitik of the time was to abolish the trade in slaves.
So, you're not going to acknowledge that you were wrong in saying the constitution only mentioned slavery once before banning it?

You have consistently ignored the factual evidence I have presented here and instead repeated you assertions with no backing.  The closest you came to offering a reference is a link to the text of the constitution which I quoted back to you to show that you were wrong.

Now you want to teach me that the slave trade was banned long before slavery?  I knew that already, thanks.  Doesn't make the founders into the avid abolitionists you want them to be.

I guess by "Americans" you only mean abolitionists were Americans.  That would leave out Washington, Jefferson, Madison and many other leaders of the revolution and of the founding of the Republic and the adoption of the constitution. 

It is true that many of them saw it as an evil or said that they did.  Even slaveholders Washington and Jefferson wrote how they wished it could be ended.  But bottom line is that they supported it.  Maybe for the reasons you stated, but GW and TJ at least profited enormously from slavery on their plantations.  They could have freed their slaves and hired them as laborers if they had been willing to accept a decrease in their yearly profits.  Both were wealthy enough to retire at that point but still they chose to keep their "property." 

The danger in this kind of thinking, Jeff, is that by idealizing the founders instead of accepting the facts about them, we make the United States and its government the most important idea to preserve instead of the liberty of the individual.  Libertarians must be clear-eyed because the kind of hero worship that doesn't permit us to admit fault in our icons never leads to freedom but always in the other direction. 


  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #65 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:04am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:51am:
So, you're not going to acknowledge that you were wrong in saying the constitution only mentioned slavery once before banning it?

You have consistently ignored the factual evidence I have presented here and instead repeated you assertions with no backing.  The closest you came to offering a reference is a link to the text of the constitution which I quoted back to you to show that you were wrong.

Now you want to teach me that the slave trade was banned long before slavery?  I knew that already, thanks.  Doesn't make the founders into the avid abolitionists you want them to be.

I guess by "Americans" you only mean abolitionists were Americans.  That would leave out Washington, Jefferson, Madison and many other leaders of the revolution and of the founding of the Republic and the adoption of the constitution. 

It is true that many of them saw it as an evil or said that they did.  Even slaveholders Washington and Jefferson wrote how they wished it could be ended.  But bottom line is that they supported it.  Maybe for the reasons you stated, but GW and TJ at least profited enormously from slavery on their plantations.  They could have freed their slaves and hired them as laborers if they had been willing to accept a decrease in their yearly profits.  Both were wealthy enough to retire at that point but still they chose to keep their "property." 

The danger in this kind of thinking, Jeff, is that by idealizing the founders instead of accepting the facts about them, we make the United States and its government the most important idea to preserve instead of the liberty of the individual.  Libertarians must be clear-eyed because the kind of hero worship that doesn't permit us to admit fault in our icons never leads to freedom but always in the other direction. 


Here's how you write a Constitution if you want to preserve and protect slavery- (From the Constitution of the Confederate States of America.)

Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 prohibited the Confederate government from restricting slavery in any way:

"No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

Article IV, Section 2 also prohibited states from interfering with slavery:

"The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired."

Perhaps the most menacing provision of the Confederate States Constitution was the explicit protection Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 offered to slavery in all future territories conquered or acquired by the Confederacy:

"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several States; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."

Notice the contrast?

If seems to me that you have been saying that the Founders of America were evil slave drivers, something often claimed to deny the legitimacy of America and our Constitution. It is simply not true.
  
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Thumper
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #66 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:13am
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And you shitholes wonder why we have such a hard time being seen as a viable party. Hell I got drawn into it myself with this thread. But I had the good sense to attempt to end the idiocy and go back to the topic at hand. Can yall? Or are yall so fixated on being right that you will continue until it's utter stupidity?


To break this down Barney style. Shut the crappity smack up.

Intesting. A word filter on a libertarian forum? anyone that missed it. Remove crappity smack. And replace it with a great big eff you see kay.

They're not curse words. They're sentence enhancers
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #67 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:31am
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Thumper wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:13am:
To break this down Barney style. Shut the crappity smack up.

Sorry, I won't. burnsred insists that America was created by people who approved of human slavery. It was not.
burnsred insists that our Constitution enshrined slavery and was written to preserve and protect slavery. It was not.

I won't let his inadequate knowledge of history sully the very idea of America.

It was rich politically connected slave owners who controlled their state legislatures (and appointed Senators) who insisted that slavery be preserved for their benefit. "Americans approved of slavery" is simply a lie. The fact that it can be made a plausible lie depends on ignorance of history.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #68 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:43am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:04am:
Here's how you write a Constitution if you want to preserve and protect slavery- (From the Constitution of the Confederate States of America.)

Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 prohibited the Confederate government from restricting slavery in any way:

"No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

Article IV, Section 2 also prohibited states from interfering with slavery:

"The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired."

Perhaps the most menacing provision of the Confederate States Constitution was the explicit protection Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 offered to slavery in all future territories conquered or acquired by the Confederacy:

"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several States; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."

Notice the contrast?

If seems to me that you have been saying that the Founders of America were evil slave drivers, something often claimed to deny the legitimacy of America and our Constitution. It is simply not true.
Jeff, are you seriously still trying to argue that the U.S. Constitution did not protect slavery?  Did you even read my quotes from it? 

Yes, the consitution of the Confederate States of America protected it even more strongly.  I have already said that the reason for the secession was to preserve slavery so of course the confederates codified slavery.  That the British might interfere with the U.S. slave trade was also a factor in the American Revolution and that the Mexicans might interfere in the Texas slave trade was a factor in the Texas Revolution.  We have to be clear-eyed in understanding our historic icons and recognize their flaws.

I never said the founders were evil slave drivers.  However, they did own slaves.  I assume they were "slave drivers" if that means people who force slaves to work.  Whether that makes them evil or whether they were good people who did one evil thing is a judgement call.  I would say the latter, especially given the morality of the times they lived in.

The constitution was a great document but it was also a very flawed document and not a libertarian document.  It was intended to be a republican document with democracy for a specified demographic.


  
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Thumper
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #69 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:49am
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I understand. More of a if it applies message.

I come from a multi racial family. We have a long history in this country. I have journels and diaries from ancestors who wrre slaves, natives, slave holders and immagrants my posession. Some dating back to the 1600s.

Our fall celebration included five generations of family under one roof.

Anyway. Back to Don. What is socially  responsible capitalism?
  
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