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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Socially Responsible Capitalism. (Read 1202 times)
burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #70 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 10:29am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:31am:
Sorry, I won't. burnsred insists that America was created by people who approved of human slavery. It was not.
burnsred insists that our Constitution enshrined slavery and was written to preserve and protect slavery. It was not.

I won't let his inadequate knowledge of history sully the very idea of America.
Jeff, I provided quotes from the constitution where it preserved slavery in three separate clauses.

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It was rich politically connected slave owners who controlled their state legislatures (and appointed Senators) who insisted that slavery be preserved for their benefit. "Americans approved of slavery" is simply a lie. The fact that it can be made a plausible lie depends on ignorance of history.
So you do admit that slavery was preserved.  regardless of the motivation, the founders preserved slavery in the U.S. Consitution.  So the U.S. Constitution was a flawed and non-libertarian document.  Except maybe as a step forward to libertarianism.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #71 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 10:36am
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Thumper wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:13am:
And you shitholes wonder why we have such a hard time being seen as a viable party. Hell I got drawn into it myself with this thread. But I had the good sense to attempt to end the idiocy and go back to the topic at hand. Can yall? Or are yall so fixated on being right that you will continue until it's utter stupidity?
I don't know about Jeff, but I am absolutely that fixated on being right so I will continue until it's utter stupidity.  That's how I roll!


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To break this down Barney style. Shut the crappity smack up.

Intesting. A word filter on a libertarian forum? anyone that missed it. Remove crappity smack. And replace it with a great big eff you see kay.
Yes, an auto-censor seems out of place on a libertarian forum but then so does telling people to shut the crappity smack up.  Still, it's your right as an individual to tell me to shut the crappity smack up just as it is the right of the board's owner to censor it and my right to keep talking anyway.


  
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Don_G
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #72 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 12:38pm
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Thumper wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:49am:
I understand. More of a if it applies message.

I come from a multi racial family. We have a long history in this country. I have journels and diaries from ancestors who wrre slaves, natives, slave holders and immagrants my posession. Some dating back to the 1600s.

Our fall celebration included five generations of family under one roof.

Anyway. Back to Don. What is socially  responsible capitalism?


I'm not going to answer you until I know you're not another of Oppo's characters. I'm now more convinced than I was yesterday. I have plenty of posts on this board explaining my position. Prove yourself first if you're going to stay.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #73 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 12:57pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 10:29am:
Jeff, I provided quotes from the constitution where it preserved slavery in three separate clauses.

So you do admit that slavery was preserved.  regardless of the motivation, the founders preserved slavery in the U.S. Consitution.  So the U.S. Constitution was a flawed and non-libertarian document.  Except maybe as a step forward to libertarianism.
What you are doing is lying with facts.

Some of the Founders owned slaves. Fact

The Constitution mentions slavery. Fact.

Therefore, the U.S. was founded by racist slave owners who preserved the 'right' to own slaves in the Constitution. Lie.

Yes, the people who wrote the Constitution tried to create a practical way to maximize individual liberty by designing a system of limited government. Government is not libertarian, but most libertarians recognize the need for limited government to protect liberty.

Individual liberty and individual rights are not a "system". Free people create all sorts of different systems.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #74 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:03pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 10:29am:
So you do admit that slavery was preserved.  regardless of the motivation, the founders preserved slavery in the U.S. Consitution.
No. They agreed to an ugly compromise in order to persuade slave states to join the Union. Slavery was preserved by rich slave owners who controlled the governments of their states.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #75 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 12:57pm:
What you are doing is lying with facts.

Some of the Founders owned slaves. Fact

The Constitution mentions slavery. Fact.

Therefore, the U.S. was founded by racist slave owners who preserved the 'right' to own slaves in the Constitution. Lie.
Not all of them were racist slave ownders who preserved the "right" to own slaves in the Constitution.  But enough of them for the slavery to be preserved in the Constitution.  Surely you admit that was true of Washington and Jefferson, no?  Your claim that the U.S. was founded by avid abolitionists who very reluctantly went along with the insistence of southerners to keep their slaves and eventually got fed up with the hated idea of slavery in their free nation and went to war to free those slaves is a comic book concept not at all supported by the facts.

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Yes, the people who wrote the Constitution tried to create a practical way to maximize individual liberty by designing a system of limited government. Government is not libertarian, but most libertarians recognize the need for limited government to protect liberty.
Hm, well . . . no government ever has been libertarian, that's for sure.  But government can be libertarian if it recognizes that its responsibility is to take violence out of the equation in economic transactions and to protect us from people who would initiate force against us. 

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Individual liberty and individual rights are not a "system". Free people create all sorts of different systems.
Free people created the system of slavery in English-speaking North America and they perpetuated that in the U.S. constitution. 


  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #76 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:03pm:
No. They agreed to an ugly compromise in order to persuade slave states to join the Union. Slavery was preserved by rich slave owners who controlled the governments of their states.
If you don't want to consider the leaders from those states who ratified the constitution founders, that's fine.  Washington and Jefferson were founders, no matter how you try to spin it.  They were rich slave owners who I'm sure had heavy influence on their state.  If they were so opposed to slavery, why did they not prevent those three slavery protection clauses from being added?


  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #77 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:14pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:12pm:
If you don't want to consider the leaders from those states who ratified the constitution founders, that's fine. 
I'll repeat what I just said- Some of the Founders owned slaves.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #78 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:16pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:12pm:
Washington and Jefferson were founders, no matter how you try to spin it.  They were rich slave owners who I'm sure had heavy influence on their state.  If they were so opposed to slavery, why did they not prevent those three slavery protection clauses from being added?


They compromised in order to get the slave states to join the Union. They felt that was necessary to preserve the new United States for long enough to make all the trouble of the Revolution worthwhile.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Socially Responsible Capitalism.
Reply #79 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 1:14pm:
I'll repeat what I just said- Some of the Founders owned slaves.
Yes, and some opposed it. 

The document they came up with that they could agree on as a framework for government gave partial protection to slavery.  Good compromised with evil with the usual results.

Mixing good with evil is like mixing chocolate cake batter with feces.  No matter how small the amount of feces, you don't get a cake that is almost perfect.  You get a shit cake no matter how you slice it.
  
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