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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs.... (Read 249 times)
Don_G
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #10 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 12:33pm
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merkelstan wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:46am:
I see your longstanding tradition of posting things which seem logical to you but are completely contrary to fact continues...

All 'systems' ration healthcare.  Socialized medicine limits access to treatments and has waiting lists.  See England's NHS for example, which denies a whole host of procedures to old people.

"Time to die, citizen"

The only way to avoid rationing is to allow a free market.  Medicine in the USA was not a free market before the ACA.


Singapore tried the free market approach and it failed for them. You need to read up on that history and you'll learn why Singapore changed to a government run universal health care system.

You may also want to refresh your memory on Ron Paul's comments that condemn the US system. Any yes, it was a mess before the ACA.

In countries with universal health care there is constant pressure from insurance companies and other 'for profit' orgs that are trying to destroy the healthcare system. They never will because there isn't anything that can repalce it cost effectively.

But greedy 'for profit' players sometimes partly succeed in convincing government to cut funding of healthcare in order to cause the people to question it.

It's only a matter of time until the US gets good affordable healthcare for all it's people. And there's no question on what it will be. There is only one option.

Take your time!
  
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Don_G
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #11 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 12:35pm
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If the American whiners on this board would look at Singapore's system of healthcare they would find that a compromise is working for them and they're getting rated as the best in the world.

It's worth discussion whether it could work in the US. It likely wouldn't work as well because there are too many poor in the US, caused by the system all our posters condemn so adamantly.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #12 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 12:50pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 12:33pm:
Singapore tried the free market approach and it failed for them.
Why don't you explain how/when/why the free market failed the people of Singapore?

They have a free market for health insurance now don't they? And the insurance doesn't pay for routine care does it? Those two things would largely explain why their health care is inexpensive, but you have to remember that free markets in general have made people in Singapore relatively wealthy, which certainly helps people to be healthy. They also work and eat a rather traditional diet which is also healthy... That helps too.

Do companies in Singapore offer health insurance as a 'benefit' of employment?  Is the cost of providing those plans tax deductible? What sort of licensing requirements are there for Doctors in Singapore? Is traditional medicine practiced without benefit of licensing? Does Singapore have the equivalents of Medicare and Medicaid? Are hospitals in Singapore required to admit and treat (for free) anyone who comes to their emergency rooms?

I don't expect you to answer any of those questions, but you do need to explain how/when/why a free market for medical care failed in Singapore. Thanks.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #13 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 1:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 12:50pm:
Why don't you explain how/when/why the free market failed the people of Singapore?


I didn't suggest that it did. For profit healthcare failed Singapore so you need to ask the right question. You know I've always promised to answer your questions when they are proper questions that pertain to reality. Please ask and I promise to answer.

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They have a free market for health insurance now don't they? And the insurance doesn't pay for routine care does it? Those two things would largely explain why their health care is inexpensive, but you have to remember that free markets in general have made people in Singapore relatively wealthy, which certainly helps people to be healthy. They also work and eat a rather traditional diet which is also healthy... That helps too.


No, Singapore has a government run universal healthcare system. And there's a twist to it that can be discussed if you can bring yourself to doing that. Questions are o.k. as long as they are a sincere attempt by you to learn. Excuses for why they are #1 are not going to be tolerated here.

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Do companies in Singapore offer health insurance as a 'benefit' of employment?  Is the cost of providing those plans tax deductible? What sort of licensing requirements are there for Doctors in Singapore? Is traditional medicine practiced without benefit of licensing? Does Singapore have the equivalents of Medicare and Medicaid? Are hospitals in Singapore required to admit and treat (for free) anyone who comes to their emergency rooms?


None of your questions are appropriate to this conversation. You must first come to understand that Singapore's system is government run healthcare.

Quote:
I don't expect you to answer any of those questions, but you do need to explain how/when/why a free market for medical care failed in Singapore. Thanks.


No, I don't have to explain anything. It's your healthcare system we're trying to work on to understand and improve. Mine's just fine. You can help yourself by looking up the answer to 'when' Singapore threw out their greedy capitalist 'for profit' system.

It's tough love Jeff. Please take that in the spirit in which it's intended. If you don't understand that spirit, just ask.
  
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Don_G
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #14 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 1:16pm
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And to the others who may be reading here:

Jeff has learned to ask good questions and a lot of them can lead to a good discussion. But first Jeff needs to be shown a bit of tough love and that requires that he just finally admit that Singapore's healthcare system is government run universal healthcare. If you can't do that then he's just being his usual piece of shit disrupter of the facts. Therm and Jeff can just play in their own sandbox if that's what he wants.
  
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burnsred
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #15 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 1:37pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 3:15pm:
...if we had the same problem before the Affordable Care Act?
My issue is not that health care costs have gone up but that insurance costs have gone up under the so-called "Affordable" Care Act.

Before the ACA, my premiums went up about three to five percent every year.  With its passage, my premiums immediately more than doubled and have gone up about ten percent every year since.  Plus employers are moving workers about different providers in a desperate attempt to keep it affordable.  I had a policy that accepted Kelsey-Seybold which I was happy with.  Then my employer pulled that policy and offered one that did not.  So I went to this doctor's office that actually had help wanted signs for doctors.  It looked like a welfare office and had obviously been set up to take advantage of many companies making the same change away from Kelsey.  So much for "you can keep your policy, you can keep your doctor, huh?"

Affordable Care Act did not make insurance affordable.  It only forced people who work hard to pay for their own policies to work even harder to pay for the policies of others.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #16 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:43pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 1:16pm:
And to the others who may be reading here:

Jeff has learned to ask good questions and a lot of them can lead to a good discussion.
But not with you. You won't reply to what you say are good questions, so I'm left with calling you a dolt. Or a Coward... and the other stuff I've called you.
  
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Jeff
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #17 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:46pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 1:37pm:
My issue is not that health care costs have gone up but that insurance costs have gone up under the so-called "Affordable" Care Act.


Before you get carried away red, the two are closely intertwined...

If health care is paid for by insurance, then when health care costs go up, the cost of insurance must follow.

If you start out without understanding that basic, you might head off in all sorts of wrong directions.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #18 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:29pm
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merkelstan wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:46am:
I see your longstanding tradition of posting things which seem logical to you but are completely contrary to fact continues...

All 'systems' ration healthcare.  Socialized medicine limits access to treatments and has waiting lists.  See England's NHS for example, which denies a whole host of procedures to old people.

"Time to die, citizen"

The only way to avoid rationing is to allow a free market.  Medicine in the USA was not a free market before the ACA.


You mean get rid of licensing. Won't happen. The Guilds would never allow it.

As I said in the other thread, you can't get rid of the Guilds. If you could, sure.

But since we can't, no amount of "free market" will lower the price.

You said yourself: Everyone rations health care. This is so the Guilds can sit pretty and make ludicrous amounts of money for a day's work. Otherwise, regular people would just offer the same service for less. Many medical procedures aren't that difficult. Different governments, same Guilds. You'd almost think the Guilds and not the government was the problem.
  

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Jeff
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Re: How is government to blame for inflated healthcare costs....
Reply #19 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:29pm:
You mean get rid of licensing.
Yes. Get rid of the idea of needing government approval. That's what we are talking about. Ending government enforced cartels.

Argue for them of it suits you, but stop pretending to be shocked when libertarians argue against them.
  
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